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Author Topic: Pay-Pal: To gift payment or not...  (Read 1068 times)

Offline Baklava

Pay-Pal: To gift payment or not...
«: July 29, 2012, 02:37:59 PM»
I have encountered this waaayyy to many times.  The commissioner that requires a payer to pay through pay pal ‘as a gift’.  A few times I have actually ignored it and just put in the payment for the fee and sent it as an actual payment.  Do I have to put the fee in?  No, but I feel it is best that the commissioner gets their full amount of money without pay pal taking that bit from them.

What I don’t understand, personally, is why doesn’t the commissioned artist just fill out an invoice and send it to the buyer?  Not only is it safe but it helps the artist keep track of whom has paid.  And one can send it when they are at the point the payment is due rather than hope that the commissioner remembers them down the line.

This issue actually appeared on FA awhile back, but I have not seen any topic that addresses it here.  The first question that was asked seems to include everything that one might think of so I added it here.


Quote
1. "...by using the "invoice" function, you're agreeing to give PayPal that 2.9% + 30 cent cut of your revenue. When people send you payments under the "friends and family" option and fund those without using a credit card, then PayPal receives no cut.

Would it not be more prudent - and more profitable - to instruct commissioners on how to properly word a gift payment as to not fall under scrutiny with PayPal? "


You can never control what your commissioner is going to say. By selecting "send as gift" or other options, you are breaking their ToS and you will be so very banned if they catch you doing this, it seems pointless to me to add one MORE rule you are breaking in the pursuit of saving literally a few dollars. It only takes one slip up for it to happen. I have seen this happen and never advise people to tell people to send as anything but a service.

Never try to stretch your definition of "friend and family" and hope that "teeechnicly it COULD be your friend depending on your definition heheh" will fly. Paypal will not split hairs with you. If they decide that this person does not qualify to be your friend, their judgment is final. If you are constantly doing this with your commissions, it is going to be really bloody obvious that you are lying at even the quickest glance at your transaction history. These transactions are how paypal makes money, if they even think you are trying to rip them off, they will drop you without a second thought. After all, you're just dead weight if you're not paying your dues.

If you are concerned about paypal's cut and really, really want that 50 cents to $2 they might take from it, include it in the price of the commission and all of these problems go away

It is against Paypal's ToS to charge an exact % to cover their fees (for some reason) so if you are worried about it, it is best to just add a flat $ increase to your actual commission prices (instead of charging $5 charge $6). The fees are so small on transactions that it's really not worth worrying about.

Paypal also limits the number of "gifts" any one person can send, gifts are also unavailable to accounts from many countries. If your commissioner asks that you send your payment as a gift, I strongly suggest that you refuse. When this person gets caught (and they will) anyone else participating in this fraud (you) will get banned as well. There really is no logical reason to ask or demand that someone do this for the 1.9 - 2.9% + 30cents (max) fee is not going to make or break a commission. The fees on a $100 commission is $3.20 USD. I pay more than that for postage on cheques. This is really not worth getting in trouble over, just pay the fees you agreed to pay for use of the service you are receiving.

More reasons never to send as gift as a buyer: Aside from the fact that you are committing fraud and will be just as at fault as the person telling you to do it when the ban-hammer comes to town, gifts are not "buyer protected" by paypal. What this means is that if your commission artist decides they're going to be a fuck wit and screw you over that paypal will not help you if they run off with your money. You are not a buyer, the money was a "gift" so they don't owe you anything.

So then.  Question is, how do you handle your pay pal?  Do you actually get upset if someone doesn’t send the payment as a gift?  What if you got the full amount you needed because the buyer took the proverbial bullet for you?  And if you still have people gifting you money, how long have you had the account?  And if you’re a gifter, have you ever encountered a time where you couldn’t pay because you reached a limit?

 
        

Offline Rex T-Rex

Re: Pay-Pal: To gift payment or not...
«Reply #1: July 30, 2012, 03:06:24 PM»
Quote
gifts are not "buyer protected" by paypal. What this means is that if your commission artist decides they're going to be a fuck wit and screw you over that paypal will not help you if they run off with your money. You are not a buyer, the money was a "gift" so they don't owe you anything.

got to be honest.. THAT statement really ticks me off. Rules and discussions on this kind of topic always seems to favor on the side of the buyer. Of no ofense ot buyers, but how baout some seller protection? I bring this up because the majority of PayPal fraud causes I read about involving artwork is that the commissioner sends payment, the artist or seller (like with alts or digos) send the item, then the commissioner files a chargeback.
I myself, hwoeverm am technically an exception... I did send $5 to somone and then I never got my portrait.. But we're tlkaing that by the time it became apparant that I was NOT getting my item, it was well apst the chargeback acceptible date.
I'll be honest, I don't think paypal is reliable... the ability to fraud someone ELSE is too ridiculously easy. I'd honestly like to try adn get more people to switch to  straight bank transfers.
If something goes wrong with PayPal, you have only a certain amount of time to get is "resolved" and if you have to deal wtih someone else's BANK.. 90% of the time THEY win, even if that person was the one committing the fraud. So now they get a free item/servie, and you get a chargeback fee. Fair? I think not.
Regular bank transers are legit bank to legit bank. Committing fraudery and/or chargebac is NOT as easy. You don't have a "time limit" to bring up a money issue. If you send payment for something and 1 year later still don't ahve the item/service you can contact your bank and get it resolved without a fee at your expense (cannot vouch on that for ALL banks but Nak of America does not charge me for customer service or dealing with money issues from another party).

So my person adivce... more people soudl switch to just using  bank transfers. I know some banks takes a few days... but that majority-wise seems to be bank to PayPal.
A year ago or so, I paid for a life phoenix on the aftermarket via bank transfer from bank to bank. It went through immediately, there was no service charge on either party. If I had had an issue, like the other person denying me the phoenix, I could easily call Bank of America and file the claim with them. then BoA would contact the other bank and explain the situation. BoA would likely ask for proof, as PayPal does, but they don't just turn over and let the other bank walk on them. Also, at the very least with ym bank, you can't just hit "chargeback" and get your money back and have the other person get fines. You need proof to chargeback a paypment and it requires calling a BoA representative and putting in more work.
I've honestly been pulling away from PayPal because of how insecure of a money handling service it is. Though I personally have not had problems with it, I cannot say that I trust PayPal enough to make it a more frequent payment method.

A few other perks of using a real bank:
money insurance
free services to send and receive money
no time limits on filing disputes
payment schedules (I often see people promising to set up payment schedules where they pay X amoutn fo money every week or every month until their debt is paid, a real bank can set up times payment scheduels and automatically send out your payment each schedules date so that you never forget to and the person you owe doesn't go without payment, even if you lose your ability to conect to the internet or contact them)

Just my 2 cents on the matter.
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Offline Spellplague

Re: Pay-Pal: To gift payment or not...
«Reply #2: July 31, 2012, 04:31:33 AM»
The only issue with bank transfers without a 'middle man', is that so far as I am aware, I could not say... send money from the UK (where I am) to the US (where the majority of my commissioners are) or vice versa. Paypal is, for me at least, that easier medium to use that allows for a variety of currencies to be used and so on.

On topic, I 99% send any payments as gifts, and let the commissioner decide for themselves as to whether send it as a gift or not. Either way if I send any money, it usually charges a fee anyway because of the currency exchange.
Contact
(faz/fam/da/rpr) spellplague

Offline Rex T-Rex

Re: Pay-Pal: To gift payment or not...
«Reply #3: July 31, 2012, 12:34:16 PM»
I cannot confirm or deny if it is possible to send transfers over seas. However, you can still set up a "payment" for someone over seas. For example, if I needed to pay you, Samh, I just need some information of yours -name, perhaps bank number to confirm account or address- and i can send a "bill payment" to you. Whether or not there is a fee.. I honestly think that's mostly a UK thing, as I can send bill pay or pay for anything else in most any other continent without incurring fees.
Maybe that's just my bank though. BoA is pretty boss.... to be totally honest.
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erde

Re: Pay-Pal: To gift payment or not...
«Reply #4: July 31, 2012, 09:48:13 PM»
Gifts are gifts and are meant to be given as such. Commissioners who expect you to pay the fee and deliberately violating PayPal's TOS are putting their account as risk. Some commissioners pay me as gifts because it's what they are used to, but I never request anyone to specifically gift it. If they give me a little extra to compensate, I'm always happy, and I usually do the same for those I commission.

I don't agree with gifting for commission, that's why I don't do it. However, it doesn't help that "commissioners" attempt to scam artists by filing chargebacks. This has actually happened to me before, and when gifting became an option, it was actually all I used for a while. I haven't had any problems recently, though.

It's a service that is abused, but used because of the benefits it does have. It's just a matter of both commissioners and artists being responsible, mature, and following the TOS. Don't try to scam artists out of money they rightfully earned. (: All artists should be wary of whom is asking for art and check for a history, and use PayPal as it's intended.