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Author Topic: Constructive Criticism vs Flaming Criticism  (Read 2893 times)

Offline Sapphirus

Constructive Criticism vs Flaming Criticism
«: June 10, 2008, 08:31:22 AM»
I really want to hear everyones POV/opinions/thoughts towards when they get more serious comments on their art peices. A lot of  experienced/popular artists seem to give the most respectful yet very constructive crituque to people who are in trouble with their artwork, but sometimes others combine a critique and a bash together, most likely discouraging the artist to shoot forth to their goals in life. Depends on how the artist takes the comment.

Is it really nessesary to bash someone while trying to help them the same time? I wouldn't really find it a point even if that person is trying to help or not. If they don't know it's to help them, then why bother adding it in with their critique comments?

Many people are needing the right push to improve with their weaknesses, no artist really wants to hear the negativity of how the person despises how their character/Fursona/Ports/etc looks, many of us just want to hear what needs improvement such as anatomy, linearting, shading, proportions, perspective, etc. We draw what we want, not what others want us to draw; Unless it's commisions, requests, etc.

Usually artists like to feel that their work is good enough to be improved. Some artists have a big ego and try to put others down by bragging about how good they are and how bad their other fellow artists are, while many others are just out to draw what they desire, regardless of peoples opinions and rants to it. It's all about either improving, or just staying at the same level of drawing, just for a side hobby.

Example of a normal, constructive critique:

The large fangs are not able to be supported by the top row of teeth. Try finding a study picture on Wikipedia to see how the teeth are set in the mouth. Making them larger means you need to make the mandible a lot larger, causing a major overbite (Or is it underbite) for the character.

But skeletal structure is very unbalanced in the places: Hands, feet, Skull, wings, tails. Even the Horns.

Remember, Bigger is not always better. A Good balanced detailed character makes it a better kind. So try shifting and resizing most places.


Now for a Bashing based Critique:

Now, as much as my brains hurts from your terrible anatomy, I have to say, you need help, a LOT OF IT. Your artwork sucks major balls and you need to think of killing yourself til you improve drasticly. kthx.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2008, 10:19:11 AM by Sapphirus »

 
        

Offline Gallifreyan

Re: Constructive Criticism vs Flaming Criticism
«Reply #1: June 10, 2008, 10:00:49 AM»
I do wholeheartedly agree, that constructive critisism is better than derrogatory critisism. Thinks like "your art sucks, be better!" does nothing for someones moral, and their drive to actually be better.

While some of the more "talented" do not have this problem, I'm all sure they've had it at some point in the past and will agree here that to help other budding portists or just artists in general is better, unless these people are acting out of spite that they might actually get better and take their custom. Who knows?

The thing is each person has their own variable style, and with that comes everyone else's personal response. Some people may love the art a certain person is calling shitty, some people may disagree with that. But..as the old saying goes, and especially where this is concerned, "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all."

I this very week had some ungrateful snob comment about a port I did them a while ago, "my port was free and look what I got." This person wasn't as unimpressed with it when it was first done I can tell you. ;) So people's feeling toward the artist can be percieved also in the comments they leave for them. In that case its better to ignore them, or tell them a) if it's been done for them, they don't have to use it or b) It's your work and you like it that way. (Yes I can see this doesn't so much apply to commissions since the commissioner is asking for a specific piece. But if they outright insult it after seeing your art they're not worth the commission fee.)

I hope this point of view helps the topic along :)

Offline Mredria

Re: Constructive Criticism vs Flaming Criticism
«Reply #2: June 10, 2008, 10:27:00 AM»
I think the main difference is that a flame is intending to hurt the person's feelings and a critique is intending to help a person. I think if you bash someone while 'critiquing' you're just trying to justify hurting someone's feelings, and it's still not ok.
The intent counts the most.
---I apologize---

Offline Sapphirus

Re: Constructive Criticism vs Flaming Criticism
«Reply #3: June 10, 2008, 10:27:48 AM»

I this very week had some ungrateful snob comment about a port I did them a while ago, "my port was free and look what I got." This person wasn't as unimpressed with it when it was first done I can tell you. ;) So people's feeling toward the artist can be percieved also in the comments they leave for them. In that case its better to ignore them, or tell them a) if it's been done for them, they don't have to use it or b) It's your work and you like it that way. (Yes I can see this doesn't so much apply to commissions since the commissioner is asking for a specific piece. But if they outright insult it after seeing your art they're not worth the commission fee.)

I hope this point of view helps the topic along :)

I can relate to this. Many people seem to be more finicky with free ports because they feel as if they're not worthy enough, unless they're paid for. I've seen several people complain about free ports. I'm like "Well if you don't like it, why did you upload it anyway?".

Paying for a port doesn't always mean better details and such. Many free ports are well done and beautiful too.

Some people can be assholes....gotta be prepared for it too  :(
« Last Edit: June 10, 2008, 01:10:27 PM by Sapphirus »

Offline Sapphirus

Re: Constructive Criticism vs Flaming Criticism
«Reply #4: June 10, 2008, 10:29:48 AM»
I think the main difference is that a flame is intending to hurt the person's feelings and a critique is intending to help a person. I think if you bash someone while 'critiquing' you're just trying to justify hurting someone's feelings, and it's still not ok.
The intent counts the most.

Well said Mredria  (:

Offline Morgan

Re: Constructive Criticism vs Flaming Criticism
«Reply #5: June 10, 2008, 11:09:36 AM»
fenneck

a fennec is a type of fox.

'finicky' is the word you are looking for.

plz for to be speaking inglishz daaa

Offline Sapphirus

Re: Constructive Criticism vs Flaming Criticism
«Reply #6: June 10, 2008, 01:08:49 PM»
WOO
I didn't know you can speak Engrish. Nice.

Offline alexandra

Re: Constructive Criticism vs Flaming Criticism
«Reply #7: June 10, 2008, 03:07:58 PM»
well from experiances irl (that don't really relate to art) i know that both constructive and flaming criticism can be good. no matter how rude it's being said it's a wakeup call that you need to improve or change or wtfever. though flaming doesn't really tell you what you need to improve, moreso irl it's more direct.

idk.

Offline Sync

Re: Constructive Criticism vs Flaming Criticism
«Reply #8: June 10, 2008, 05:31:19 PM»
well from experiances irl (that don't really relate to art) i know that both constructive and flaming criticism can be good. no matter how rude it's being said it's a wakeup call that you need to improve or change or wtfever. though flaming doesn't really tell you what you need to improve, moreso irl it's more direct.

idk.

yeah i agree with this.

though i'd prefer not to have flaming criticism lol. but anything that's going to help.

Offline Hugo

Re: Constructive Criticism vs Flaming Criticism
«Reply #9: June 10, 2008, 07:10:23 PM»
Flaming criticism is basically useless because the person on the receiving end then doesn't want to follow the instruction of the person harassing them. If anything, it keeps a person from improving.

Offline Piyo

Re: Constructive Criticism vs Flaming Criticism
«Reply #10: June 10, 2008, 10:35:28 PM»
I myself like criticism, though if it's like "OH THAT IS SO NOT COOL" or things like that... it annoys me.

I've gotten very few good Constructive Criticism comments on dA. Lemme post one..

Posted on this image
Quote from: `Davenit
Definitely a well framed image. This is a classic case of you take what the day offers. The sky isn't optimal for sure.

In cases like this you just have to make the best of the environment and I think you've done well.

The only real nitpic I have is the otters tail. Pressure points (as there called) are a tough thing to keep an eye on in situations like this. Things too close to the borders can cause a viewers eye to go out of the frame or cause an uneasy feeling with the viewer. Very had to realize while shooting an image like this but something that you have to look out for.

The crop of the child is just perfect. It's a comfortable crop that includes all the emotional elements needed. You can almost see the boys wonderment.

Nice image.
Piyo||Ptra
DJ Cadmium

Offline Sapphirus

Re: Constructive Criticism vs Flaming Criticism
«Reply #11: June 10, 2008, 10:36:21 PM»
Flaming criticism is basically useless because the person on the receiving end then doesn't want to follow the instruction of the person harassing them. If anything, it keeps a person from improving.


This is why I love ya Hugie. Always know what to say to take the cake of anything. :D

Though I deal with bashing/flaming/etc, and people telling me to stop drawing 24/7, it actually inspires me to improve rather than to ever give up. This usually ticks those people off which makes me feel better, realizing that my "keep trying" ego pulls me through.

Offline Hathor

Re: Constructive Criticism vs Flaming Criticism
«Reply #12: June 11, 2008, 04:26:15 PM»
I tend to keep my constructive crits away from my flaming. Not that I really flame art, 'cause no matter how bad it is, I'd feel it wrong to flame someone for how bad their art might be as all of us started out bad at some point. I do find myself admiring art even done by people I can't fucking stand lolsnapesnogger, but then I don't actually give them crits as, like my example just now, they can't take a single word of it, even though it might do them some good.

SO I prefer to do my bashing of the actual artist, not the art. 8D

I just don't see the point in bashing art if you want to help the artist get better though. Constructive crits is the way to go, as the artist is more likely to listen to them. If you post a load of bashing, they are likely to feel hurt and ignore all the help given. Of course some might just laugh it off and take the advice anyway, but you can't be sure on who can do that or not.
...

Offline Sapphirus

Re: Constructive Criticism vs Flaming Criticism
«Reply #13: June 11, 2008, 05:17:28 PM»
I tend to keep my constructive crits away from my flaming. Not that I really flame art, 'cause no matter how bad it is, I'd feel it wrong to flame someone for how bad their art might be as all of us started out bad at some point. I do find myself admiring art even done by people I can't fucking stand lolsnapesnogger, but then I don't actually give them crits as, like my example just now, they can't take a single word of it, even though it might do them some good.

SO I prefer to do my bashing of the actual artist, not the art. 8D

I just don't see the point in bashing art if you want to help the artist get better though. Constructive crits is the way to go, as the artist is more likely to listen to them. If you post a load of bashing, they are likely to feel hurt and ignore all the help given. Of course some might just laugh it off and take the advice anyway, but you can't be sure on who can do that or not.

You hate Snapsnogger? Why D: <33

I know many people hate her, for her attitude, though I never ran into any crossfires with her. Read her ED site, that's pretty much all....

Offline Hathor

Re: Constructive Criticism vs Flaming Criticism
«Reply #14: June 11, 2008, 05:27:16 PM»
Her attitude. Some ED pages might be far from the truth on some subjects, but hers is spot on. xD It's like, you give her crits, and she could just say "hey, I don't take crits" and hide the comment, right? Instead, she goes fuckin' mental and her fans attack ya. LOL
...

Offline Sapphirus

Re: Constructive Criticism vs Flaming Criticism
«Reply #15: June 11, 2008, 05:51:36 PM»
Her attitude. Some ED pages might be far from the truth on some subjects, but hers is spot on. xD It's like, you give her crits, and she could just say "hey, I don't take crits" and hide the comment, right? Instead, she goes fuckin' mental and her fans attack ya. LOL

Hmm, I guess I forgot to read the hiding comment article, but yeah. I couldn't believe it when I heard she attacks critique people. I read that whole article part too. She has a new DA account called OwlGem, Naga free though xD hehe

Her Nagas were pretty cool, I miss em now for some reason :/

Offline Eevee

Re: Constructive Criticism vs Flaming Criticism
«Reply #16: June 11, 2008, 09:37:37 PM»
(Edited after thinking more about it)
Her attitude. Some ED pages might be far from the truth on some subjects, but hers is spot on. xD It's like, you give her crits, and she could just say "hey, I don't take crits" and hide the comment, right? Instead, she goes fuckin' mental and her fans attack ya. LOL

You have to consider that she gets badgered alot by people who read ED like its a bible, so naturally she'll react that way to anyone when it starts out the same way as those who badger her. Everyone claims Owlgem is crazy but if you were constantly harassed for what you enjoy drawing or enjoy drawing however you draw, you'd snap at anyone who mentions the same stuff the harassers bother you about once that last bit of tolerance is shattered. Some people who might read this will probably think "I wouldn't do that" but its the same as constantly being poked nonstop for hours upon hours, days upon days, without a break to get some feeling back in the area that's being poked.

Some people draw to improve, therefore look for critique and ask for it. Others draw because they enjoy it and are happy where they are. Owlgem may be one of those who are happy with their quality of work just because they enjoy drawing.

Not everyone posts their work to get critiqued. The problem some people like Owlgem have is even though they don't want critique, people still do it because maybe something about the artist's style or current level of drawing isn't to how the viewer likes it or thinks it should be. The problem is, if an artist doesn't want to change how they draw, some people find it an opportunity to harass the artist because they don't want to change something so that the viewer will be happy.

The only time the artist should bend to the viewer's visual desires is if the person is paying the artist to draw for them, but since its usually just random viewers out to cause mischief, there's no reason to bend to that viewer's desires unless they're paying. Otherwise, the artist is allowed to draw what they want, how they want.

If someone asks for critiques on a piece, I'll give it to them. If they don't, I'll just root them on to keep drawing.

I've probably strayed from the topic, so to get back on beat:

Constructive criticism is given with the intent to educate and help an artist improve. From what I've experienced, the way you can tell if criticism is constructive is if you read it, and feel like it can be implied to your work as well, even if it wasn't directed at you. Constructive criticism doesn't just educate the person its intended for, it can help those who read it and take it into consideration.

Flaming criticism is given with the intent to emotionally effect the artist in a negative way. From what I've witnessed, it doesn't infuriate just the person its given to, but to others who may happen to stumble upon it and not find it funny like others who would have made the same comment. Its given with hate, spite, or just plain bullying, sometimes given with the intent to make the artist quit drawing forever, which should never be done. Flaming criticism is usually made by "trolls" that wandered out from under the bridge, mostly to stir up trouble and make the person they're bothering look bad, so that they can tell their friends who will do the same.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2008, 01:42:41 AM by Mynt »

Offline Sapphirus

Re: Constructive Criticism vs Flaming Criticism
«Reply #17: June 12, 2008, 04:50:24 AM»
(Edited after thinking more about it)
Her attitude. Some ED pages might be far from the truth on some subjects, but hers is spot on. xD It's like, you give her crits, and she could just say "hey, I don't take crits" and hide the comment, right? Instead, she goes fuckin' mental and her fans attack ya. LOL

You have to consider that she gets badgered alot by people who read ED like its a bible, so naturally she'll react that way to anyone when it starts out the same way as those who badger her. Everyone claims Owlgem is crazy but if you were constantly harassed for what you enjoy drawing or enjoy drawing however you draw, you'd snap at anyone who mentions the same stuff the harassers bother you about once that last bit of tolerance is shattered. Some people who might read this will probably think "I wouldn't do that" but its the same as constantly being poked nonstop for hours upon hours, days upon days, without a break to get some feeling back in the area that's being poked.

Some people draw to improve, therefore look for critique and ask for it. Others draw because they enjoy it and are happy where they are. Owlgem may be one of those who are happy with their quality of work just because they enjoy drawing.

Not everyone posts their work to get critiqued. The problem some people like Owlgem have is even though they don't want critique, people still do it because maybe something about the artist's style or current level of drawing isn't to how the viewer likes it or thinks it should be. The problem is, if an artist doesn't want to change how they draw, some people find it an opportunity to harass the artist because they don't want to change something so that the viewer will be happy.

The only time the artist should bend to the viewer's visual desires is if the person is paying the artist to draw for them, but since its usually just random viewers out to cause mischief, there's no reason to bend to that viewer's desires unless they're paying. Otherwise, the artist is allowed to draw what they want, how they want.

If someone asks for critiques on a piece, I'll give it to them. If they don't, I'll just root them on to keep drawing.

I've probably strayed from the topic, so to get back on beat:

Constructive criticism is given with the intent to educate and help an artist improve. From what I've experienced, the way you can tell if criticism is constructive is if you read it, and feel like it can be implied to your work as well, even if it wasn't directed at you. Constructive criticism doesn't just educate the person its intended for, it can help those who read it and take it into consideration.

Flaming criticism is given with the intent to emotionally effect the artist in a negative way. From what I've witnessed, it doesn't infuriate just the person its given to, but to others who may happen to stumble upon it and not find it funny like others who would have made the same comment. Its given with hate, spite, or just plain bullying, sometimes given with the intent to make the artist quit drawing forever, which should never be done. Flaming criticism is usually made by "trolls" that wandered out from under the bridge, mostly to stir up trouble and make the person they're bothering look bad, so that they can tell their friends who will do the same.

I'd know how that feels, because I do have one afterall. People wonder why i'm an asshole to them when they talk about it to me like a cliche (not reffering to friends). Of course I just deal with it and love on.

As for her attitude, she reminds me of myself, though only thing is I don't have many fans/supporters that'll kill flamers. But I have many supporters on Furcadia, luckily. It's bascially because people use flames mixed with crituque on their comments.

People who make ED articles tend to add untrue stuff to make the situations worse for the person.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2008, 12:36:12 PM by Sapphirus »

Offline Hathor

Re: Constructive Criticism vs Flaming Criticism
«Reply #18: June 12, 2008, 07:53:26 AM»
What pisses me off about her is how she has been seen to tell people they can't crit because their skills are not as good as hers, though people might believe you have to be a super awesome artists to be able to crit other art, you don't. You just need to have the eye to see what is wrong with a piece. And like I said, she can just hide unwanted crits, ED or no ED, doesn't mean you gotta be a bitch at people who aren't even bashing or flaming. There are people out there who just want to help and suggest, they might not know whether or not the artists wants tips or not (though I do admit, it helps to read the bit above a comment box). Raging on innocents is only another way to add to the trouble. :/
...

Offline Sapphirus

Re: Constructive Criticism vs Flaming Criticism
«Reply #19: June 12, 2008, 12:38:19 PM»
What pisses me off about her is how she has been seen to tell people they can't crit because their skills are not as good as hers, though people might believe you have to be a super awesome artists to be able to crit other art, you don't. You just need to have the eye to see what is wrong with a piece. And like I said, she can just hide unwanted crits, ED or no ED, doesn't mean you gotta be a bitch at people who aren't even bashing or flaming. There are people out there who just want to help and suggest, they might not know whether or not the artists wants tips or not (though I do admit, it helps to read the bit above a comment box). Raging on innocents is only another way to add to the trouble. :/

That's a very true point. You just have to watch out for those idiots who just type things about your art for the lulz.

I've met some kind, considerate people who helped me with my art through unusual crituques, though I re-read them again and understood what they were trying to point out to me.

Offline Hathor

Re: Constructive Criticism vs Flaming Criticism
«Reply #20: June 12, 2008, 12:54:24 PM»
Aye. I love crits, one artist (who I really admire) has helped me improve so much in the past due to her crits. Sadly I don't see her about that much anymore. >:
...

Offline Sapphirus

Re: Constructive Criticism vs Flaming Criticism
«Reply #21: June 17, 2008, 12:02:43 AM»
Aye. I love crits, one artist (who I really admire) has helped me improve so much in the past due to her crits. Sadly I don't see her about that much anymore. >:


I have this artist who's taught me about using the pen tool. She use to flame me and post crap about me all over DA, which I recognized as browsing through peoples DA journals and such.

She decided to apologize in her own way and give me some useful critiques without being an ass to me anymore. She actually helped me improve a lot in some on my weak areas Which is a relief. It' suprising how many people have done this already to me on DA; Make or use their past DA accounts to apologize to me in notes from their past actions.