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Author Topic: Critique My Art?  (Read 1935 times)

Erde

  • Topic Author
Critique My Art?
«: January 18, 2009, 02:33:45 AM»
Well, I tend to ask for it a bit on dA but never seem to get any feedback.  Maybe those of you on FAZ can give me a hand?

(There's not much in my gallery, so please check my dA page: http://erdeferret.deviantart.com/)

I do have the book Drawing On The Right Side Of The Brain, so no need to recommend it. I just haven't gotten around to reading it yet, but I have plans to start in my freetime at school.

 
        

IPGD

  • Topic Author
Re: Critique My Art?
«Reply #1: January 18, 2009, 03:21:02 AM»
Pretty much everything I can say about styuhl and anatomy are in my sig, so I'll just focus on your color/rendering:

All of your pieces follow the same boring gradation from light to dark. It's like looking at different monochromatic pieces slapped together into one image. Color and shading does not work like "bright color > middle color > dark color", it's "brighter, less saturated color closest to the color of the light source > middle color less tinged by the light source > darker, more saturated color that is a complementary, or opposite, color to the light source > reflected light bounced from the surrounding objects that is tinged by the color of the surrounding objects". Here's a shitty little demonstration picture:



This is true for any other color set. If you have a green light source and predominantly yellow objects all around, you'll have green highlights, red shadows and yellow reflected light. In normal outdoor lighting, you'll usually end up with a yellow-purple-blue set up (yellow from the sun, purple is yellow's complementary, blue from the atmosphere).

Oh fuck I'm tired, I'm stopping here. I'll explain what the fuck I'm talking about tomorrow, screw you guys.

CHECK BACK IN 10 HOURS FOR MORE WALLS OF TEXT

Erde

  • Topic Author
Re: Critique My Art?
«Reply #2: January 18, 2009, 10:55:05 AM»
Makes sense. I saw a tutorial on it, but I'm always in such a rush to get something done I never take the time to worry about it.

Now that I'm probably going to be taking more time on my pictures though, I will take that into consideration and try my best to work with it. Thanks for that tidbit. :D

IPGD

  • Topic Author
Re: Critique My Art?
«Reply #3: January 18, 2009, 04:20:21 PM»
I'm back from the dead and I did a pretty shitty job of explaining reflected light, so here's a followup and a better example than my 30 second pimply sphere.


... from my latest WIP. The shadows are totally fucked up because I can't properly reference to save my life, but you get the point.

Reflected light is something most artists are completely oblivious to until they have it shoved in their faces, and many times it's the missing link between a shitty picture and a masterpiece. I think this is largely the problem you have with your rendering; it looks kind of like you want to get away from outlined drawing, but you have no idea how to define a form without them. Reflected light is what stops limbs from melding together into shadow and it's what brings differently colored objects together in unity. You can probably notice on the example above how separated the legs and shorts on the right image look in comparison to the left; this is almost entirely due to the lack of reflected color.

Now that you are aware that light and shadow are actually different colors, one thing to watch out for is that you keep a healthy value range.


There are basically two ways to keep your picture from looking like that sad little tube:

1. Periodically desaturate your image (Shift+Ctrl+U in Photoshop) to make sure everything is dark/light where it needs to be
2. Paint out your values in greyscale and apply a color wash on top (this is what I do). Ridiculously simple to do; either create a new layer on top of your values and set the blend mode to Color, or paint directly on top of the values with your brush's blending mode set to color.

I actually highly recommend you work with greys before you try to paint directly with color. It's a lot easier to learn how value works if you remove the complication and trickery of color from the equation.



... As for your actual method of rendering (I honestly should have started with this but I am retarded), there's a lot of problems. You should never, ever touch the smudge tool to blend. Use the default hard round brush with pen pressure set to opacity, or use a custom brush (the one I use is the pencil tool from this collection. I use it for both sketching and rendering). There's very little suggestion of form; you just scribble darker and lighter lines in every which way to try to mimic fur or folds. Always block out the actual shape of the object with value before you try to add in details like hairs.

As I mentioned earlier, it does really look like you're trying to go for more soft/realistic shading but you can't figure out how to make it look good without lines. Most of the time, what I do is just work my underlying sketch directly into my rendering. Here's some really shitty, convoluted lay out of my process that I did a while ago. I don't know how much it helps if at all, but yeah:


Even if you aren't going for realistic rendering, it really helps to learn it before you try to do work with simplified forms and outlining.

My brain is kind of shitting itself right now so I have no idea if any of this is even remotely coherent. If you have an specific questions about anything regarding art or whatever, let me know and I can try to explain it to you.

Offline Cormallen

Re: Critique My Art?
«Reply #4: January 21, 2009, 05:01:49 PM»
For the record, Dodge and Burn tools are your bestest friends. Set them to 20% or 30%, choose a general brush (I choose a solid circular one,) and watch the passes. If the light line needs to be less defined, a pass or two at a good % with the Soften tool will do the trick.

I've a nice Biolante K-Girl that I colored in from someone else's line work somewhere as proof of that shading method.
Swords: A greatsword is not a one-handed weapon. A greatsword is not fast. If it is fast, it means it's made of paper mache' and will break upon striking anything.

Randomat twirls two greatswords, one in each hand.
GM: Randomat's hands fall off.


--from the Leirune RP Guide

IPGD

  • Topic Author
Re: Critique My Art?
«Reply #5: January 21, 2009, 05:37:11 PM»
Quote
For the record, Dodge and Burn tools are your bestest friends.
OH YOU DID NOT JUST GO THERE
Reasons why dodge/burn is bad:

  • The rendering it results in looks very unnatural. At the very best, everything you draw will look like an airbrushed model from a magazine (and I've only seen one person who managed that); more typically, your rendering will look like a muddy mess with no recognizable form other than the lines that contain it.
  • It's incredibly difficult to manually create any texture other than "airbrushed and pillow shaded" with dodge and burn. This will either lead to the image looking plastic and flat, or encourage a dependency on computer-generated textures.
  • It is utterly unlike any other kind of traditional medium. While this in itself is a minor complaint, it's better to learn a method that will allow you to branch into other artistic mediums rather than staying pigeonholed.
  • It creates the same coloring problem the OP already has. Everything ends up one color, very flat, very boring, and does not allow for the same figure-background immersion that intelligently and manually applied color does.
  • It is not conducive to blending. Implying edges and forms with dodge/burn is almost impossible; you can highlight and you can shadow, but unless you have the precision of a surgeon, you will never be able to do anything but chunky line drawing.

Every artist who has so much as breathed in the direction of improvement will tell you that dodge and burn is the most sinister contraption in the universe and should be utterly eliminated from every program that has the misfortune of carrying it. Dodge and burn is more of a threat to the world than cancer, AIDS and religion combined and should be treated with as much disdain has humanly possible.

If you have tried every other brush, every other program, every other type of paint, pastel, marker, pencil, whatever, and nothing has worked for you, only then should you try to use dodge and burn, though I'd suspect at that point you probably have something like Lou Gehrig's Disease.

Offline Lassa

Re: Critique My Art?
«Reply #6: January 21, 2009, 05:48:04 PM»
I second IPGD's comment on the burn and dodge tools. Complete with rage faces.

Offline Cormallen

Re: Critique My Art?
«Reply #7: January 21, 2009, 06:41:44 PM»
1) I'm LOLing at the rage faces. SAVE'D! :D

2) Man... you have a different sense of what consitutes art, huh? Your stuff is great and everything, but we all have different ways of doing our styles. Try not to rag on other's methods unless you actually have a personal complaint against that individual, huh? We're here to offer how we do things the way we know it, not get into a pissing match.

That being said, I like the Burn/Dodge method for the fact that it's a great way to set the shadows; all of my stuff is done assuming there's a white light. Colored light, I apply the Airbrush, but only on Multiply or Screen to preserve the chiarscuro. Scream all you like, but some of us enjoy creating a "flat" style. Ask if that's the intended result.
Swords: A greatsword is not a one-handed weapon. A greatsword is not fast. If it is fast, it means it's made of paper mache' and will break upon striking anything.

Randomat twirls two greatswords, one in each hand.
GM: Randomat's hands fall off.


--from the Leirune RP Guide

Offline Lassa

Re: Critique My Art?
«Reply #8: January 21, 2009, 06:55:07 PM»
The problem with the dodge/burn method is that, although easy, it produces unrealistic results. :| compare the real shadows/highlights of any object and try to reproduce it using one flat colour and the burn and dodge tools, it won't happen.

IPGD

  • Topic Author
Re: Critique My Art?
«Reply #9: January 21, 2009, 07:01:16 PM»
Quote
2) Man... you have a different sense of what consitutes art, huh? Your stuff is great and everything, but we all have different ways of doing our styles. Try not to rag on other's methods unless you actually have a personal complaint against that individual, huh? We're here to offer how we do things the way we know it, not get into a pissing match.

That being said, I like the Burn/Dodge method for the fact that it's a great way to set the shadows; all of my stuff is done assuming there's a white light. Colored light, I apply the Airbrush, but only on Multiply or Screen to preserve the chiarscuro. Scream all you like, but some of us enjoy creating a "flat" style. Ask if that's the intended result.
There are some things that are stylistic choices, and there are some things that are pretty universally terrible. Like dodge and burn. Even if you were going for the plastic, flat look (which I doubt; chances are you're just placating yourself by telling yourself you like it, since you don't believe you can do any better), there are better ways to accomplish it than using dodge and burn. I mean, unless you are deliberately trying to make your picture look horrible, I can't see any purpose for it. It is literally the worst tool on photoshop.

Actually, I take that back, lens flare's pretty bad

Offline Cormallen

Re: Critique My Art?
«Reply #10: January 21, 2009, 07:03:03 PM»
Actually, I take that back, lens flare's pretty bad

I agree with you. I know I can make a better one with just brushes. *shudders*
Swords: A greatsword is not a one-handed weapon. A greatsword is not fast. If it is fast, it means it's made of paper mache' and will break upon striking anything.

Randomat twirls two greatswords, one in each hand.
GM: Randomat's hands fall off.


--from the Leirune RP Guide

Erde

  • Topic Author
Re: Critique My Art?
«Reply #11: January 27, 2009, 01:54:04 AM»
I've tried dodge and burn before.

No thanks. It made things look worse, and it's even more half-assed than what I do right now. >.>; They have their uses in photoshop, but not for drawing.

Also: THANK YOU SO MUCH on the shading with light sources stuff. I tried that on my latest finished piece: http://erdeferret.deviantart.com/art/Moggy-Finished-110230968 and it looks a LOT better. I realize it's still pretty lazy, but I just wanted to test it out a bit before I start getting a handle on it. I'll be working with it a lot more, though. :3

Offline Morgan

Re: Critique My Art?
«Reply #12: January 27, 2009, 04:08:42 AM»
1) I'm LOLing at the rage faces. SAVE'D! :D

2) Man... you have a different sense of what consitutes art, huh? Your stuff is great and everything, but we all have different ways of doing our styles. Try not to rag on other's methods unless you actually have a personal complaint against that individual, huh? We're here to offer how we do things the way we know it, not get into a pissing match.

That being said, I like the Burn/Dodge method for the fact that it's a great way to set the shadows; all of my stuff is done assuming there's a white light. Colored light, I apply the Airbrush, but only on Multiply or Screen to preserve the chiarscuro. Scream all you like, but some of us enjoy creating a "flat" style. Ask if that's the intended result.

god you are a moron.

also: i agree as always with ms. ipgd 10000000000%.

Offline Pocketmew

Re: Critique My Art?
«Reply #13: January 27, 2009, 01:44:28 PM»
1) I'm LOLing at the rage faces. SAVE'D! :D

2) Man... you have a different sense of what consitutes art, huh? Your stuff is great and everything, but we all have different ways of doing our styles. Try not to rag on other's methods unless you actually have a personal complaint against that individual, huh? We're here to offer how we do things the way we know it, not get into a pissing match.

That being said, I like the Burn/Dodge method for the fact that it's a great way to set the shadows; all of my stuff is done assuming there's a white light. Colored light, I apply the Airbrush, but only on Multiply or Screen to preserve the chiarscuro. Scream all you like, but some of us enjoy creating a "flat" style. Ask if that's the intended result.

If you're doing anime art, I can see how you want flat coloring. Burn and Dodge make it look...subpar, not straight edge. Why not use the lasso tool, select what you want to shade and the bucket tool to fill in the selected area? Or better yet, use the lasso tool. Then use gradient over the selected area. If you're not going for anime style or cartoon, then flat coloring is definitally an ick.

IPGD

  • Topic Author
Re: Critique My Art?
«Reply #14: January 27, 2009, 02:11:38 PM»
Quote
use the lasso tool.
If you do this, make sure you're working at very high resolutions (I typically range from 3000x3000 to 6000x6000 pixels). The clunky antialiasing of the lasso and paintbucket tool will look pretty bad if you're starting out on a 800x800 canvas.

Offline Pocketmew

Re: Critique My Art?
«Reply #15: January 28, 2009, 11:09:49 AM»
Quote
use the lasso tool.
If you do this, make sure you're working at very high resolutions (I typically range from 3000x3000 to 6000x6000 pixels). The clunky antialiasing of the lasso and paintbucket tool will look pretty bad if you're starting out on a 800x800 canvas.
Yup => If you use gradient though it blends in nicely. I prefer to use gimp if I ever use lasso, as it is sort of like bezier and you can choose many many points so it doesn't look chunky clunky.
Besides the point though, before ever doing anime you should do realism first to get anatomyz down. You never get better with animu. >w<

Erde

  • Topic Author
Re: Critique My Art?
«Reply #16: January 28, 2009, 11:49:21 AM»
Quote
use the lasso tool.
If you do this, make sure you're working at very high resolutions (I typically range from 3000x3000 to 6000x6000 pixels). The clunky antialiasing of the lasso and paintbucket tool will look pretty bad if you're starting out on a 800x800 canvas.
Yup => If you use gradient though it blends in nicely. I prefer to use gimp if I ever use lasso, as it is sort of like bezier and you can choose many many points so it doesn't look chunky clunky.
Besides the point though, before ever doing anime you should do realism first to get anatomyz down. You never get better with animu. >w<

I'm doing 2-d media in college right now to learn to work with shades and stuff, then 3-d media after that, and I'm pretty sure life drawing is coming after that.

I think before that comes I'll have read a few books. But I don't like anime as is, so I'm trying to avoid that style.

Offline Azula

Re: Critique My Art?
«Reply #17: January 28, 2009, 01:03:13 PM»
if you're really going into 3D animation, you really REALLY need to comprehend the body's limits including skeletal and muscle limitations. and not only that, but you really need to understand things in a 3D world instead of 2D and it was really hard for me to wrap my head around the additional dimension. rigging is exceptionally difficult and time consuming to get things just right so having a really solid grasp of the anatomy of whatever you're rigging will be really really rlyrlyrlyrlyrlyrlyrlyrly helpful