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Author Topic: Quest for improvement. Critique wanted!  (Read 2413 times)

Offline Electric Guitar

Quest for improvement. Critique wanted!
«: February 23, 2009, 08:50:45 PM»
Well guys, I'm on a quest. A quest to improve myself as an artist on furcadia and feel comfortable enought with my work to take on commissions. I'd love to hear critique from anyone so long as its constructive. Please keep rude and unnecessary comments out of thread though. Red lining would also be much appreciated.

I'll post sketches, works in progress, finished work, ect as I go along. Please help me out!  :)
« Last Edit: March 03, 2009, 08:26:39 AM by Electric Guitar »

 
        

Offline Electric Guitar

Re: Quest for improvement. Critique wanted!
«Reply #1: February 23, 2009, 08:57:55 PM»


First one. I've done a lot of feral portraits, but I've been wanting to try my hand at anthros. Red lining would be greatly appreciated. Please do not steal.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2009, 09:00:19 PM by Electric Guitar »

IPGD

Re: Quest for improvement. Critique wanted!
«Reply #2: February 23, 2009, 10:16:33 PM»
Quote
If you aren't up to par your not worth a second thought.
That couldn't be further from the truth. Furries will buy anything.

You know how everyone is saying I'm "good"? I'm fucking dog shit compared to any real artist. The Furcadian community has incredibly low standards and it is really not that hard to meet them.


This is a very small image and as such it's sort of hard to find any fault with it because it's just not showing much of anything. If you have any larger sketches or drawings, those would probably let us give you a more accurate assessment of where you need to improve. For very generalized advice, see the book/tutorial recommendations in my signature.

Offline Electric Guitar

Re: Quest for improvement. Critique wanted!
«Reply #3: February 23, 2009, 10:30:30 PM»
Oh noes. I are gonna insults ur arts.

Looks mostly ok. I grabbed a copy and zoomed in real close on it. The only thing I noticed that you may want to check is drawing a line between the eyes and checking the angle of that against the top of the nose. I think (in theory) the line across the top of the nose should be at a similar angle to the line between the eyes. Right now it looks like the far side of her muzzle is longer than the close side.

The muzzle feels a little too long, however, it may be because of the species of the critter.

The species would be a generic wolf I guess. I'll try that line trick and see if I can correct the muzzle. Thanks for the help!

Quote
If you aren't up to par your not worth a second thought.
That couldn't be further from the truth. Furries will buy anything.

You know how everyone is saying I'm "good"? I'm fucking dog shit compared to any real artist. The Furcadian community has incredibly low standards and it is really not that hard to meet them.


This is a very small image and as such it's sort of hard to find any fault with it because it's just not showing much of anything. If you have any larger sketches or drawings, those would probably let us give you a more accurate assessment of where you need to improve. For very generalized advice, see the book/tutorial recommendations in my signature.

I'm not saying people are harsh when it comes to buying. If your not good in the eyes of others, you are automatically not worth talking to and insults will be given upon whim. I'm tired of that. I mean I know there will be cruel people no matter where you go. I'm just tired of my art being judged as shit. Anywho, it's small because it's a portrait. I want to get critque as I go through the process of doing sketches, coloring, and shading. I'll add larger artwork as I do it. Just uploading for you guys to see as I do them.

IPGD

Re: Quest for improvement. Critique wanted!
«Reply #4: February 23, 2009, 10:51:23 PM»
Quote
I'm not saying people are harsh when it comes to buying. If your not good in the eyes of others, you are automatically not worth talking to and insults will be given upon whim. I'm tired of that. I mean I know there will be cruel people no matter where you go. I'm just tired of my art being judged as shit. Anywho, it's small because it's a portrait. I want to get critque as I go through the process of doing sketches, coloring, and shading. I'll add larger artwork as I do it. Just uploading for you guys to see as I do them.
... Again, not seeing that :p People on Furcadia are overly nice about art. Nobody says what they actually think about each other's art because most Furcadian artists get offended at the littlest of slights. Furcadia is as close to artistic Candy Land as you can get. If you can draw moderately articulated stick figures, you will receive as much love and adoration as you could possibly imagine.

Your art should be judged as it is. People who lie or tell you your work is better (or worse) than it actually is does nothing but distort your own view of your work, and your opinion is the only thing that really matters in the end. If you actually want to improve as you say, it's necessary to not be so personally attached to your artwork; if you can't look at it objectively, and accept and acknowledge your own faults, you will remain blind to them. Being able to not get mad when someone honestly assesses your work is very important to artistic improvement.

Like I said before, there's not much wrong with what you've posted.

Offline ReiYukihana

Re: Quest for improvement. Critique wanted!
«Reply #5: February 24, 2009, 01:23:12 AM»
I couldn't tell you much about what people do and don't do on Furcadia, thank goodness. ;)  But I do know places like ConceptArt.org have the problem wherein mediocre artists hanging off of the professionals on the site like parasites like to pop in, insult new artists and drop useless "critique" like "ur anatomy sux."

...But I get the feeling that might not be what you're talking about. :D;

I do think artists that are literally just beginning usually have a hard time getting noticed even enough for critiques.  I know in my time I've honestly skipped over commenting for some folks like that, not because I didn't care, but because the only helpful advice I can ever really muster is "keep practicing."  I could say more, but somehow it just doesn't seem that helpful.  (Also, on the sites I used to frequent, I would've been the eighth person to say so, heh.)

Anyway, as long as you have the drive to improve, you can do so.  In the piece linked I noticed a number of structural issues, like the muzzle one pointed out by Youlanda.

From the head down, I'd first debate the thickness of the neck.  It's a bit thin per average, but especially curious considering canine/be-muzzled skulls tend to be a little on the wide side.  That and the shape of the head and the structure of the muzzle bug me; but I think those are best left for the big anthropomorphic fans here to comment on.  But at the very least, remember that no matter what you're drawing, there's got to be an area near the back/base of the skull where the spinal column begins and goes into the neck.  Important structural note.

There's a line on the neck (In the shape of a \ ) that really doesn't make any sense to me.  The actual noted muscle of the neck is higher, as a rule, and goes in the opposite direction when the head is facing forward.  Technically speaking, that muscle starts at the base of the skull near the ear and wraps around the neck, attaching to the collar bone. 
Example, thank you Google: http://www.medicalarts.com.au/media/gallery/107.jpg  See that huge diagonal one?  That's the most prominent neck muscle for the most part, and the 'line in the neck' that you usually see drawn.  Just...try not to make the line too stark, it's not really a big deal or very visible on most folks.

Next on down is the collarbone.  It's about close to the right spot, but a bit off in a few ways.  It's a bit high for one, and the lines are drawn out a bit too far.  You general don't want to delineate them too much, but just show/hint that they're there, as they're a bit subtle on your average person.  Also of big note: they go a bit too far in together, and making them touch in the middle is kind of a big no.  They should also look the same on both sides, as the bones are symmetrical.  As it is it looks like the one on the right is simply higher up for some reason. 

The shoulder/arm on the right (closer to the viewer) looks like it's too close to the body or doesn't come out enough.  Given the perspective, it just looks like her collarbone-to-shoulder area on the left half is simply longer than the right half. 

The arm holding the rose is questionable, but mostly out of frame and at least workable enough now to shrug off as fine.  The hand I'm having some problems with, though.  The fingers all seem to be a bit thin/pointed, which could be a stylistic thing, sure, but they also seem to lack the proper pose, structure and perspective of a hand actually holding something, as right now they're all relatively flat compared to one another, and should be redrawn with a reference.  There's also nothing under the fingers to denote the proper shape of the rest of the hand.  A little bit of palm should at least be visable, and the arm should be meeting it properly. 

Of course, these problems are underlying.  You're doing a good job already, and though there are apparent problems with (what seems to be) a lack of experience with structure and anatomy, you're also doing things right so far, and I can tell that you're trying and getting somewhere already.  In particular the subtle curve of the shoulder/arm on the left is correct, and something not many beginning artists get right or pay attention to.


'Course my overall prescription is a pretty universal one.  Get out there and do some practice/study of the figure.  Easiest way to start, go to a site with pictures of folks posing (whether you like it or not, DeviantArt has a section for photographed forms,) and just start drawing what you see.  If you feel like you need a better understanding of how to build those figures when drawing, start out first with some muscle/skeleton diagrams.  Reproduce things you feel you need work on, etcetc.  Anyway, just do that for about an hour or a half an hour before the next time you draw and you'll notice a big improvement already.  It takes a lot of practice and study to improve, but, well, you said you want to be good, so get working soldier. ;)

Offline Electric Guitar

Re: Quest for improvement. Critique wanted!
«Reply #6: February 24, 2009, 05:27:55 PM»
Quote
I'm not saying people are harsh when it comes to buying. If your not good in the eyes of others, you are automatically not worth talking to and insults will be given upon whim. I'm tired of that. I mean I know there will be cruel people no matter where you go. I'm just tired of my art being judged as shit. Anywho, it's small because it's a portrait. I want to get critque as I go through the process of doing sketches, coloring, and shading. I'll add larger artwork as I do it. Just uploading for you guys to see as I do them.
... Again, not seeing that :p People on Furcadia are overly nice about art. Nobody says what they actually think about each other's art because most Furcadian artists get offended at the littlest of slights. Furcadia is as close to artistic Candy Land as you can get. If you can draw moderately articulated stick figures, you will receive as much love and adoration as you could possibly imagine.

Your art should be judged as it is. People who lie or tell you your work is better (or worse) than it actually is does nothing but distort your own view of your work, and your opinion is the only thing that really matters in the end. If you actually want to improve as you say, it's necessary to not be so personally attached to your artwork; if you can't look at it objectively, and accept and acknowledge your own faults, you will remain blind to them. Being able to not get mad when someone honestly assesses your work is very important to artistic improvement.

Like I said before, there's not much wrong with what you've posted.

Maybe its just the people I've met. x.x It doesn't bother me at all when people want to give me criticism. I don't mean to come of as not accepting my faults and not being open to criticism. I welcome it. It does when people are like, "your art is shit, go away." Your right though, my opinion should be what matters. It never hurts to improve. :)

I couldn't tell you much about what people do and don't do on Furcadia, thank goodness. ;)  But I do know places like ConceptArt.org have the problem wherein mediocre artists hanging off of the professionals on the site like parasites like to pop in, insult new artists and drop useless "critique" like "ur anatomy sux."

...But I get the feeling that might not be what you're talking about. :D;

I do think artists that are literally just beginning usually have a hard time getting noticed even enough for critiques.  I know in my time I've honestly skipped over commenting for some folks like that, not because I didn't care, but because the only helpful advice I can ever really muster is "keep practicing."  I could say more, but somehow it just doesn't seem that helpful.  (Also, on the sites I used to frequent, I would've been the eighth person to say so, heh.)

Anyway, as long as you have the drive to improve, you can do so.  In the piece linked I noticed a number of structural issues, like the muzzle one pointed out by Youlanda.

From the head down, I'd first debate the thickness of the neck.  It's a bit thin per average, but especially curious considering canine/be-muzzled skulls tend to be a little on the wide side.  That and the shape of the head and the structure of the muzzle bug me; but I think those are best left for the big anthropomorphic fans here to comment on.  But at the very least, remember that no matter what you're drawing, there's got to be an area near the back/base of the skull where the spinal column begins and goes into the neck.  Important structural note.

There's a line on the neck (In the shape of a \ ) that really doesn't make any sense to me.  The actual noted muscle of the neck is higher, as a rule, and goes in the opposite direction when the head is facing forward.  Technically speaking, that muscle starts at the base of the skull near the ear and wraps around the neck, attaching to the collar bone. 
Example, thank you Google: http://www.medicalarts.com.au/media/gallery/107.jpg  See that huge diagonal one?  That's the most prominent neck muscle for the most part, and the 'line in the neck' that you usually see drawn.  Just...try not to make the line too stark, it's not really a big deal or very visible on most folks.

Next on down is the collarbone.  It's about close to the right spot, but a bit off in a few ways.  It's a bit high for one, and the lines are drawn out a bit too far.  You general don't want to delineate them too much, but just show/hint that they're there, as they're a bit subtle on your average person.  Also of big note: they go a bit too far in together, and making them touch in the middle is kind of a big no.  They should also look the same on both sides, as the bones are symmetrical.  As it is it looks like the one on the right is simply higher up for some reason. 

The shoulder/arm on the right (closer to the viewer) looks like it's too close to the body or doesn't come out enough.  Given the perspective, it just looks like her collarbone-to-shoulder area on the left half is simply longer than the right half. 

The arm holding the rose is questionable, but mostly out of frame and at least workable enough now to shrug off as fine.  The hand I'm having some problems with, though.  The fingers all seem to be a bit thin/pointed, which could be a stylistic thing, sure, but they also seem to lack the proper pose, structure and perspective of a hand actually holding something, as right now they're all relatively flat compared to one another, and should be redrawn with a reference.  There's also nothing under the fingers to denote the proper shape of the rest of the hand.  A little bit of palm should at least be visable, and the arm should be meeting it properly. 

Of course, these problems are underlying.  You're doing a good job already, and though there are apparent problems with (what seems to be) a lack of experience with structure and anatomy, you're also doing things right so far, and I can tell that you're trying and getting somewhere already.  In particular the subtle curve of the shoulder/arm on the left is correct, and something not many beginning artists get right or pay attention to.


'Course my overall prescription is a pretty universal one.  Get out there and do some practice/study of the figure.  Easiest way to start, go to a site with pictures of folks posing (whether you like it or not, DeviantArt has a section for photographed forms,) and just start drawing what you see.  If you feel like you need a better understanding of how to build those figures when drawing, start out first with some muscle/skeleton diagrams.  Reproduce things you feel you need work on, etcetc.  Anyway, just do that for about an hour or a half an hour before the next time you draw and you'll notice a big improvement already.  It takes a lot of practice and study to improve, but, well, you said you want to be good, so get working soldier. ;)

Thank you very much for the helpful critique. Some anatomy issues might be due to the fact it was a quick sketch on photoshop, but I'll try to fix some of the errors. As for doing some studies, I'll be sure to do that. I wish I was in a life drawing class, but doing it from pictures works too.

Offline Cormallen

Re: Quest for improvement. Critique wanted!
«Reply #7: February 25, 2009, 03:29:49 PM»
I just want to cover a point that Rei has elaborated on--pretty much most animals have the same kind of neck structure (with minoor variences on per-species basis--I'm considering writing a paper on those kinds of differences for art's sake.) The trick AFAIK is to look at a representive of the species and use your mind's eye to morph that image into the general "feel" you're aiming at; you've got a fair portion of that down, the rest, right now, is details.

And speaking of details--suggestion? Don't form the fingers of the hand individually. You'll find it easier to undertstand if you do a few basic hand-studies with your own. The majority of forms that a hand can take can be summed up in a single stroke or shape; splay your fingers out and you have a fan. Make a fist and you have a box. After you have the positioning, then you can do fingers--but at the pixel size, you'll want to just make the "sugesstion" of the fingers to convey what the hand is doing.

The devil's in the details. :)
Swords: A greatsword is not a one-handed weapon. A greatsword is not fast. If it is fast, it means it's made of paper mache' and will break upon striking anything.

Randomat twirls two greatswords, one in each hand.
GM: Randomat's hands fall off.


--from the Leirune RP Guide

Offline Heimdall

Re: Quest for improvement. Critique wanted!
«Reply #8: February 25, 2009, 07:58:59 PM»
Quote
... Again, not seeing that :p People on Furcadia are overly nice about art. Nobody says what they actually think about each other's art because most Furcadian artists get offended at the littlest of slights. Furcadia is as close to artistic Candy Land as you can get. If you can draw moderately articulated stick figures, you will receive as much love and adoration as you could possibly imagine.

Matter's right, however it's not just Furc that's like that. When I sit and doodle with my friends, they flip and say "OMG UR SO GOOD!" Even the other artists. When it's NOT that good.

As for actual crit, it does look good and I won't repeat what others have said, however you might find it more useful to sketch at a size larger than the final product, if you're doing digital. This is especially true with ports, since it can be a bitch to cram tons of wee details into a 95x95 square. I sketch and shade ports at 475x475 px (5x size). This helps with shading too. See if you like it! =)

Offline ReiYukihana

Re: Quest for improvement. Critique wanted!
«Reply #9: February 26, 2009, 04:39:26 AM»
Thank you very much for the helpful critique. Some anatomy issues might be due to the fact it was a quick sketch on photoshop, but I'll try to fix some of the errors. As for doing some studies, I'll be sure to do that. I wish I was in a life drawing class, but doing it from pictures works too.

Proper classes are definitely hugely helpful, but yeah, the most important things for getting better are firstly flatout practice and in a close second knowing where to direct your efforts.  Practicing with the right intent is the best thing, and it's not uncommon for professional artists to admit to never having been formally trained at all.  :) 

Matter's right, however it's not just Furc that's like that. When I sit and doodle with my friends, they flip and say "OMG UR SO GOOD!" Even the other artists. When it's NOT that good.
 

This an incredibly common thing with comments from non-artists or beginning artists.  It's important to have the experience to know what comments on your work are fluff and what have some basis, and then you can enjoy those for what they are and still search around for real, meaty critique.

This is sound advice. I work at 600x600 or so for portraits.

Advice thirded.  Work at any larger 1:1 scale format that you feel comfortable in.  Just remember how small it's going to become.  Details that seem a bit small at, say, 600x600 can easily become completely unreadable and just be compositionally awkward at portrait size.

Offline Electric Guitar

Re: Quest for improvement. Critique wanted!
«Reply #10: March 03, 2009, 08:47:46 PM»
First post edited because I was getting a little tired of people commenting on my motives. :( I just want critique guys.



Updated. Should I start outlining?

Offline Cormallen

Re: Quest for improvement. Critique wanted!
«Reply #11: March 04, 2009, 06:24:55 PM»
I believe I would--at the least, the hand looks a lot less awkward than before. (I still think some more thought on the fingers would be in order, but that's just me.)

"Carry on my wayward son."
Swords: A greatsword is not a one-handed weapon. A greatsword is not fast. If it is fast, it means it's made of paper mache' and will break upon striking anything.

Randomat twirls two greatswords, one in each hand.
GM: Randomat's hands fall off.


--from the Leirune RP Guide

Offline Electric Guitar

Re: Quest for improvement. Critique wanted!
«Reply #12: March 28, 2009, 03:17:13 PM»


Look ok?

Offline Sedde

Re: Quest for improvement. Critique wanted!
«Reply #13: March 28, 2009, 03:21:06 PM»
The face, definitely. The eyebrow ridge seems a bit much and the cheekbone is still kinda high...but I dunno, that might be the kind of look you're goin' for.
Another note -- the collarbone is waaaaaay too low.
See:

The hand also still kinda creeps me out...a friend of mine had hands like that in high school, and we joked around about him having vampire fingers 'cause they were so long and creepy. :B I'll do a redline in a bit and post it so you can see what I mean. It just looks like the fingers are a bit too long right now, and too spaced out.

Offline Electric Guitar

Re: Quest for improvement. Critique wanted!
«Reply #14: March 28, 2009, 03:40:11 PM»
The face, definitely. The eyebrow ridge seems a bit much and the cheekbone is still kinda high...but I dunno, that might be the kind of look you're goin' for.
Another note -- the collarbone is waaaaaay too low.
See:

The hand also still kinda creeps me out...a friend of mine had hands like that in high school, and we joked around about him having vampire fingers 'cause they were so long and creepy. :B I'll do a redline in a bit and post it so you can see what I mean. It just looks like the fingers are a bit too long right now, and too spaced out.

Thank you!

Offline Sedde

Re: Quest for improvement. Critique wanted!
«Reply #15: March 28, 2009, 03:41:20 PM»
Hope this helps!


Sesruc

Re: Quest for improvement. Critique wanted!
«Reply #16: March 28, 2009, 04:50:50 PM»
what dwy said!

and her eyes are placed a little funny. one looks too low?
i've moved it up a bit and i also lowered her armpit


Offline Electric Guitar

Re: Quest for improvement. Critique wanted!
«Reply #17: March 29, 2009, 09:26:57 AM»
Thanks a bunch guys. :D Cookies for both of you.

Offline Electric Guitar

Re: Quest for improvement. Critique wanted!
«Reply #18: May 03, 2009, 11:58:55 AM»


Thanks so much with your help guys. It looks a lot better now. I'm going to start shading.

Offline Arley

Re: Quest for improvement. Critique wanted!
«Reply #19: May 05, 2009, 03:54:46 AM»
Is it just me or does her right eye (our left) look about a pixel or two too high? It might be just me ._o

Offline Cormallen

Re: Quest for improvement. Critique wanted!
«Reply #20: May 05, 2009, 04:41:50 PM»
...y'know, Youlie, you just gave me a great idea on what to do with these silly C++ GUI classes I have on my lap. At least they'll look better than the default Windows interface... or the in-built Allegro ones. *shudders*

With that out of the way, let's see what you end up--you're doing better with this one compared to the original. (I used to do fingers like that before, heh. I sorta do now, but they don't look so wierd as before.)
Swords: A greatsword is not a one-handed weapon. A greatsword is not fast. If it is fast, it means it's made of paper mache' and will break upon striking anything.

Randomat twirls two greatswords, one in each hand.
GM: Randomat's hands fall off.


--from the Leirune RP Guide

 

anything