New board division in the gallery! Update your threads!

[Zodiac]

http://www.furcartzone.com/index.php?board=26.0

EDIT: HEAVY MAINTAINANCE.

- The Gallery Main - For Showing off your art, and receiving comments. No crit, no seeking help. Just showing.
- Critique Subforum - Critz pls

[Tate]

- Critique Subforum - For asking for serious critique of whole finished pieces, no redlining unless given permission.

Why not move all redlining/critting to the crit forum, and not just reserved for Finished pieces? That part doesn't make much sense to me.

Explain why it's for finished pieces, only?

i mean, the main reason the different forums had been asked for was so there was one for crit as a whole, and one for people who just wanted pricing/no crit/no help, but being told prices.

I personally think the crit boards should be one, and they should have a rule that you MUST have a [softcore] or a [hardcore] tag in their titles. Because I know I use my thread for crit on both unfinished, and finished pieces. I want thorough crits on all my pieces. It's annoying that the board that's reserved for hardcore crit is for only finished pieces, and that the other board is now to be thought of as soft core, and the only way I'd get what I want is if I put it in my topic and someone sees it. I don't know. I'm bitchy. I'm complaining. Sorry. But.. argh. It boggles my mind.

I think the original idea was
Gallery (show off)---Prices
--------------------Critique

bhtrg3gergferhrw

[Zodiac]

Because helping someone finish a pieces is different from giving a critique.

The division is based on what I have seen happen in the boards in the past. I don't think an unfinished piece warrants the need for a full blown critique (so to speak - you can ask people to be as honest as you want if you are seeking help on an unfinished piece), and if you are asking people to "crit" an unfinished piece, you as essentially asking for help in finishing it.

[IPGD]

Mm, yeah, the divisions seem sort of... chopped up. Can't redline in the critique forum, but can in the non-critique forum? Some of the best critique is better conveyed through example than not.

I think I get what you were going for with the finished/WIP thing (a collective analysis/deconstruction of an artist's method vs. an isolated examination of an specific piece), but I still think it's sort of an arbitrary division. I don't really think they are separable in this way; one is going to have the other, and vice versa, and the discouragement of one will lead to the the critique as a whole suffering.

Also, forcing people to post their WIP help requests in a forum that essentially discourages critique is probably not going to result in a forum that does much helping (read: basically with these rules im not going to bother to post there though that may be what you wanted). If you really want to separate the big kids from the babies, I think it'd just be simpler to make the division to that purpose; let people post both WIPs and finished pieces in either, but make one for sugar and candy and one for honesty.

In any case, I much prefer to ask for help with WIPs; when I look for critique, it's usually to get a fresh look at a piece I've been staring at too long to be able to catch my mistakes any longer. By the time I'm done with it and I've put it away, I've already seen all the crap that's wrong with it and don't ever want to look at it again (something that might have been averted if I'd asked for help in the construction stages but no I was lazy!!!). Basically, I want people to be mean to me and help me finish my piece at the same time. It's more efficient that way.

[Zodiac]

As I said in the post I made while you were writing -

If you are asking for "critique" on an unfinished piece of work, you are essentially asking for help in finishing it, and thus it would be assistance. Critique is a pretty broad word here, but technically if you are helping someone to finish a piece you are in a way critiquing them, and if you are critiquing someone you are helping them. But, if I did not make some kind of division, then I may as well have left the boards as they were.

Also:

Critique/Criticism - To review a piece of artwork, and point out good and bad qualities of the work. When bad qualities are present, constructive criticism will be used to point out how to fix the problem, and help the artist improve in the future.

This is what Critique has been defined as in the rules. Applying this concept to something that is not finished, you are not reviewing someones work, you are telling them how you think they should finish it. Make sense?

[Tate]

.... But The point is we want honesty, and all we're able to post our WIPs on is the sugar and candies board.

[Zodiac]

Its not a sugar and candies board. If you want honesty, ask for it.

EDIT: I will take out the "No crit" phrase on the Assistance board, if that makes it less confusing.

[IPGD]

But it says "no crit", which is... what.

[Zodiac]

See edit.

[IPGD]

so this is more of a division to separate pricing from critique while still allowing people to ask for pricing and critique at the same than a butthurt aversion move?

it is like 3 am in my bumfucked circadian rhythm land so forgive me if I am slow and completely incoherent as to your intentions

[Zodiac]

My intention is to divide the people who go to the forums wanting ASSISTANCE and the people who want CRITIQUE. I don't really know how to explain it better.

Assistance - the work is not done, you need help of some kind finishing it. you plan to keep working on it heavily but would like input from others in the dirction you will go. you would like others opinions on your prices. you want people to redline portions of your drawing that you are struggling with.

Critique - the work is done, you don't plan on doing much MORE to the piece but you would like people to give their input as to what they think of the piece as a whole. likely, you will use the crit to help you in future pieces, or to make small adjustment in your over all finished piece. the work may or may not have been done entirely on your own (IE: no assistance along the way) and you want peoples opinions. a redline from someone MAY come in handy, when explaining a portion of their critique, but it is up to you if you do or do not want that. it may be helpful in the explanation, or maybe you would prefer not because you don't plan on updating it.

Its not just pricing that is being divided. As I said, if your work is not finished with your piece and you ask people to crit and redline it, you are asking for assistance in finishing the piece. This is different from having a finished piece, and asking people to critique it so that you may do better with your technique.

[Hugo]

Delete the three split galleries and just change the gallery into a critique-exclusive forum. The jam forums function well-enough for people who aren't seeking critique.

Less mess, more functionality.

Of course, you could even go a step farther and crack down on people who aren't respecting OP requests, but that's a path of more resistance.

[Tate]

Or you could just do what was suggested, and make three cleanly separated things.

Show off.
Pricing.
Critiquing.

As far as I understand, jams are a communal thing and are centered around themes, not your own personal threads.

[Zodiac]

Masha is right, jams are centered around themes and wouldn't work for people just wanting to show off their most recent works.

The original suggestion was to divide the gallery into "Showing off" and "help, crit, pricing". But, it had already been in discussion with staff that there is a difference between critiquing work, and assisting work. If you WANT people to be harsh and brutally honest with your WIP pieces, Masha, then ask them to.

[Dolly]

In before the gallery is shut down because people can't "play nice".

[Tate]

Uhm, no, I'm pretty sure the original suggestion was to NOT put the critting and pricing together. In fact, if you want to pair two of those together, out of the three? It was pricing and showing off.

At this point, I'm not talking about my OWN work, but what was originally suggested.

Oh, and it annoys me to have to put my completed works and wips in separate threads, yes.

[IPGD]

But, it had already been in discussion with staff that there is a difference between critiquing work, and assisting work.

I sort of disagree with this and think it's a pointless separation that doesn't address any of the actual problems people had with the Gallery forum but I've posted too much in this thread so I'm going to go to bed and let other people argue about this instead of me

[Zodiac]

If anyone else has any more input on it, they can feel free to post here and we will work something out. As of right now, only two people are giving their thoughts on the subject of how the forum should be divided. I would like to see how more people feel about this before taking further action.

[Morgan]

i think that it should just be split into pricing and crit. anything else is kind of a really stupid split considering the original suggestion

[Zodiac]

How can we effectively people who ask for price/crit at the same time, people who want to show off only, and people looking for crit only?

Ideas welcome.

[Tate]

Gallery (main)=show off
Pricing=Pricing
Critique=Critique

If they're looking for pricing at the same time as critiquing, then they can add that they want pricing also, while posting in the critiquing forum.

The main thing was to avoid putting those who only want pricing in the same vicinity as critiquing (So people who want to crit can just completely ignore them. Hugo's right, you should punish the critique givers for their behavior, but it could be better to just all around not give them a rightful chance. I'm pretty sure the people who have been 'offending' will gladly completely ignore the show off and the pricing forums, thus solving the problem.). But if they want pricing along side crit, i don't see the problem with asking for pricing at the same time, as most people who are rearing to crit you will also gladly give you a price. I don't see them losing input on their pricing by posting in the crit forum. Do you think they'd get less pricing input?

[Zodiac]

My main thought has always just been that I don't think that critiquing a WIP is nearly the same as critiquing a whole piece. Many people like to put hardly-finished WIPs up places, and ask for a crit/help when they have hardly done anything on their own to it, and hide behind the idea that they are asking for a crit. When really, it seems more like they just want someone to finish the work for them. If people feel they need this kind of help, I just don't see it as equal to people asking for crit on something more completed.

I see your point in keeping the pricing in a category of its own. I've already removed the Assistance portion entirely, and condensed the crit to include all crit. But, it seems pointless to have pricing as its own category, and then allow pricing elsewhere as well.

[Tate]

Then you can allow pricing to be everywhere. It can as easily be in 'show off' as 'crit', I guess. Since if they don't want crit, they're just showing off. c:

Your other point on the crit-I think that might be why we should have tags. 'softcore' and 'hardcore'. Instead of making a different category and causing any confusion. Otherwise, i don't really know what to tell them about that. (mainly because how you put it, finishing work for them, annoys me. So I'm out of ideas for it, but i still don't think there needs to be two forums for it. Tags, at most.)