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Author Topic: Split from Price Suggestion + Anatomy tips?  (Read 3616 times)

Offline Mousesong

Split from Price Suggestion + Anatomy tips?
«: August 28, 2009, 11:05:32 AM»
The best thing you might be able to do for yourself right now is to stop drawing feral characters entirely.


Tain, I sincerely apologize for hijacking your thread. I hope you don't mind too much and at least understand why I am. By the way, if you're named after the epic, awesome name!

Anyway:

You know, I have an extremely good record on every forum I am on. I have never once to my recollection started a flame war. I don't post jerky comments unless I really can't help it. When a thread is reduced to mindless trolling and crap-throwing, I politely duck out and hide.

But Youlanda, I have been lurking on this board for months, not doing much except selling my stuff, since I'm not a part of the "Furcadia community" and feel strange contributing to it at times, and despite the fact that rudeness and pettiness are absolutely rampant in this group, you enrage me so thoroughly that I feel the need to say what everyone else is thinking.

You seem to really love "critiquing" pieces. Your suggestion, as I recall, was the one that resulted in the critique child board. I am the first to agree that this is a good idea. It would be better, though, if critique actually came as critique.

This makes twice I've seen you recommend "don't draw" as advice to an artist. Maybe, benefit of a doubt, you were saying draw something other than ferals. I agree that you should try and draw as much as possible to improve. But assuming that's what your rude comment meant (see? offering ADVICE instead of just saying don't do this is GOOD, or people may not understand what your comments mean), and not "don't draw cos you suck," you don't have a lot of room to talk. As far as I can tell most of your art is comprised of the same three-quarter-view creepy-as-hell anthro face over and over, with the ears changed; the same staring, creepy eyes and poorly-attached muzzles, pillow shaded (seriously!) straight to oblivion.

What I gather from your other "critique" around this forum, though, is that you simply think people who don't draw to your standard should stop drawing, or at least understand why they should be subjected to your blatant rudeness and immaturity. The fact that they are just learning to draw does not give you the right to treat them like crap and hurt their feelings to gratify your own enormous ego.

I firmly believe that no matter what anyone's skill level is, they can still critique effectively. You don't have to be a five-star chef to know when a sauce needs more salt. But since your critique isn't critique at all, and is instead a flagrant excuse to flaunt your delusions of superiority and your outright rudeness, I'm saying it: you shouldn't post feedback. Ever.

I've read feedback where you honestly recommended someone stop drawing. Telling someone to pick up a pencil for once is the best you've ever done in the other direction, and unfortunately that's exactly how you phrased it. I've heard you give a pricing suggestion as "if you ever miraculously got good enough to sell..." I've seen you give a "redline" that was a mindless and informationless jumble of scribbles that conveyed literally no information, and tell someone to learn isometric perspective without giving them any clues or hints from your apparently bottomless wellspring of godly ability with same. In the same thread a polite feedbacker managed to say the same thing you did, but with hints, and even with an effective sketch diagraming what happens with parallel lines in isometric perspective. Your retort to the artist's second attempt? Stop drawing. The one time I saw you actually attempt to provide someone feedback, your recommendations amounted to "pillow shade this." You finally have advice, and it's bad.

I don't understand why you think you have the right to dictate who can and can't attempt to draw. I also don't appreciate the fact that you seem to think you're in a position to lay out long posts of pseudo-technical expertise that contain no valid information, and offer criticism that is empty and pointless and then call out others for what you deem mindless asspats. How is a content-less "good job" any better than a content-less "learn to draw"? You're not being the bold artist, willing to make enemies for the sake of honesty. You are not being Simon Cowell. You are being an asshat. There is a difference between honesty and jaw-dropping rudeness.

You are a grown woman. You come onto a forum populated largely by teenagers for the apparently express purpose of telling them how much they suck. From what I can tell you're bitter that a new wave of younger Furcadians is coming in and stealing the spotlight you had when Furcadia was young. Being around for a long time doesn't give you the right to be a jerk. I think people are afraid to tell you off because you've been around long enough to become an unfortunate fixture of the community, like a hole behind a door that everyone's too lazy to patch even though it's an eyesore, and have finally just gotten used to. Well guess what? I'm an outsider. I don't play Furcadia any more, although I enjoy seeing portrait art and producing my own. So I'm not afraid of you and I'm not afraid of the consequences of telling you what you need to be told.

 You are a GROWN WOMAN, and list one of your hobbies as trolling. You enjoy flaming. What sort of pathetic existence are you cultivating that you can spend this much time telling teenagers not to draw, or teling them they suck without telling them how to get better? Maybe (it's a strong maybe) you are a better artist than the people you "critique," and I use that word loosely. So what?

I have no artistic self-esteem, but I'll say this: I am a better artist than you. I don't just mean technically, or because I try to draw things other than the same creepy anthro with poor facial anatomy, over and over, with the same pillow shading and strange perspective--I try to draw lots of subjects in different styles, and challenge myself. I don't even mean because my stuff's just better and more enjoyable to look at, although I honestly think it is. I mean I'm a better artist because I don't come to a community of artists with an inflated ego and a chip on my shoulder, running them out and telling them they're hopeless, intentionally hurting their feelings. I'm a better artist because when I critique people (and I do, outside of Furc), I offer thoughtful criticisms, redlines that make sense, feedback that can actually be used, and ENCOURAGEMENT. I'm a better artist because I don't suggest that the best thing an artist can do is stop drawing, when the exact opposite is true.

You need to grow up. You need to sit down and seriously re-evaluate yourself. Let me say it a third time: you are a grown woman. How dare you do what you do? You should be banned from any critique until you can get a grasp on what the word actually means, and start making yourself useful.

You can start, not by ceasing to draw, like you love to recommend, but by drawing more, until you actually learn how to produce aesthetically pleasing art.

Grow up and learn some common decency.

Edit: Bolded the most important part, IMO

Edit2: Just wanted to say that I have limited access to other websites here, but I went and looked to find something of yours to give you an example of how to properly critique. I, after all, don't believe in just telling someone not to do, I believe in showing them how to do it right. In this case, I'm showing you how to critique, rather than just flaming you.

The only ports in your gallery were a year and a half old, but I went ahead and critiqued them as I'd like to see critiques done around here. Take note.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2009, 11:51:59 AM by Mousesong »
have you seen jezebel? she was walking where the cedars lined the road...

 
        

Offline Narnia

Re: Split from Price Suggestion + Anatomy tips?
«Reply #1: August 28, 2009, 01:34:10 PM»
I split this post from the main thread because I don't want to discourage a conversation here. I just didn't want it occuring in Tain's thread.
"The views expressed in this message are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect those of the Furcadia Art Zone, Dragon's Eye Production, or Furcadia."

Offline Mousesong

Re: Split from Price Suggestion + Anatomy tips?
«Reply #2: August 28, 2009, 01:44:37 PM»
Thank you for splitting it. I did feel bad derailing the conversation, and I still feel like I went a little overboard here, but if you agree that this is an issue that needs to be discussed, I am glad that you decided to let the opportunity for discussion to continue. Thank you very much for splitting it.

EDIT: Wow I'm incoherent today. Man.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2009, 01:53:53 PM by Mousesong »
have you seen jezebel? she was walking where the cedars lined the road...

IPGD

Re: Price Suggestion + Anatomy tips?
«Reply #3: August 28, 2009, 02:00:55 PM»
Since I know her pretty well and I'm pretty sure Youlie gets most her stuff from me, I'm fairly confident most of this applies to her as well, so enjoy another massive wall of text:

The best thing that ever happened to me was the first time someone told me my art was bad. Not "good" or "average", like I'd been told by every last person I'd ever met since I started drawing, not even "bad", but so mindshatteringly horrible that it "made his eyes bleed" and "made him want to kill himself". He told me exactly why it was bad. He laughed at me when I said I wanted to draw professionally and told me I had absolutely no future. He didn't say a single word that had anything to do with showing me how to do it right, but it was still the most important "critique" I'd ever received.

Why? Because your attitude towards art and your progression is just as important as your know-how. I was so wrapped up in my obsession with a particular style that I refused to learn the basics. Because I'd been coddled all of my life I was deprived of an objective understanding of my art's value and I thought I was too good for it. I seriously believed that I could carry on for the rest of my life drawing the same thing over and over again and actually become successful like I wanted to.

If someone had just been a fucking jerk to me, even once, maybe I wouldn't have wasted the previous six years continually masturbating my stagnant self-obsessed idiocy. Instead, art and style are lauded about as untouchably subjective and people's egos are carefully allowed to stay inside their pristine magic bubble in a world where no one is actually honest about what they think. There are so many people who are serious and have potential to be really, really great that are going to go absolutely nowhere because they aren't going to learn how to look at themselves and really think "I'm still not as good as I want to be and I'll have to work hard to get there" before they're already secure in their desk job and marriage and kids. The sense of stagnant adequacy that is promoted by positive reinforcement is absolute artistic genocide, and even though the people who do it mean well, it is absolutely, absolutely more deconstructive than a "you suck" will ever be.

Be honest with me -- has a blatantly "deconstructive" comment like "you suck" or "stop drawing" really ever discouraged you from drawing? Probably not. Maybe you'll feel bad at first, but you (and everyone else who draws because they love to) will inevitably bounce back stronger than before. Even knowing that just one person doesn't like your work can do a lot towards pushing you towards that objective self-critical understanding that is necessary to improvement. You're more likely to actually give up once you enter the job market and you're still not good enough to make it -- and what's better to get you stuck in that place than honestly believing you're already good enough and that you don't have to work any harder than you already are?

This "cruelty" probably isn't as helpful to casual artists who don't particularly care about improving themselves, but I'd much rather help one person who is actually serious about their work than spare the ego of twenty "doodlers" that can ultimately just ignore what I say if they don't want to expend the effort to better themselves. It might even end up helping someone find something else they'd rather do seriously if they learn that they don't enjoy drawing as much as they thought they would -- but I've never, ever seen anyone actually quit drawing after I've told them they were terrible. They've only gotten better, and much faster than they had before.

My honest critical analysis will ultimately just be a drop in a sea of asspats and blatant lies, so I try to make it count when I say something. I want the things I say to stick with the people I critique because they're some of the most important things for them to learn and remember. I do purposefully try to be mean, not out of malicious intent, but because it's sometimes the most helpful thing I can do for a person -- the sheep in wolf's clothing, so to speak. They'll remember it because it's harsh and startling and they'll appreciate it later because it's true.

Youlanda sucks. You suck. I suck. Every last person on this board sucks but we can all get better. While I didn't particularly agree with the advice she gave (the drawing other things, yes, the stopping drawing ferals completely, not so much in this particular case), Youlie wasn't telling this person to stop drawing. She did mean that the OP should draw things besides ferals. I don't remember her ever saying that and meaning that in the past, but I don't really feel like going through all her posts to verify it. I know she's said "stop drawing anime", which also does not mean "stop drawing period", and I fully agree with that (see my signature for why).

Pointing out what's wrong with a piece without offering suggestions is a perfectly valid way to critique. If you aren't absolutely sure that your corrections are actually right, you shouldn't be offering corrections. A simple "the leg is off" means you should probably look at pictures of legs on your own to see why; if someone can't see their own mistakes, and you give them a redline that's riddled with just as many, they're probably not going to see those, either. They might learn from those mistakes by adopting them instead of actively avoiding them like they would if they looked at something they could be reasonably sure is done correctly, and that is more deconstructive than if you'd just left it at "the leg is off" and nothing more.

And even if you can't offer decent corrections, that doesn't make your observations any less valid or useful. The ability to see errors and correct those errors are not always in complete equilibrium. Someone could be able to point out every slight misstep in muscle curvature and still not be able to apply that knowledge on their own, and that's perfectly okay. Many times you'll end up pointing out errors that the artist never noticed (and this happens a lot; after staring at something for so long, not even a horizontal flip will save you), and that awareness alone can be all the help someone needs to fix a problem.

This is even less of a problem in an open forum like this; critique becomes a collaborative effort. Sometimes people pointing out problems even helps me analyze someone else's work better; they'll bring to my attention something I missed at first glance, and I can easily expound on what they've said, either through my own understanding or through the resources I have at my disposal.

Sometimes a piece is so far gone that it's not worth the effort to offer piece-specific suggestions. Someone who's drawing flat as a sheet of paper animu really isn't going to learn anything if I point out every single anatomical error or completely redraw their picture for them. All you really can do to help them is to tell them what they're doing wrong with broad, general strokes and offer them resources so they can help themselves. Show a man what he's done wrong with a piece, and he'll fix a single piece; show a man what he's doing wrong as an artist, and he'll better every piece to come.

Youlanda is not a professional critic and she probably never will be, but what she says is critique and it is helpful, even if she doesn't know enough technoartbabble to stretch her posts out to ten pages of flowery pretense like I do. At the very least, she's helping people develop thicker skin and detach their ego and personal feelings from their art, and that's enough.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2009, 02:12:23 PM by Narnia »

pez

Re: Split from Price Suggestion + Anatomy tips?
«Reply #4: August 28, 2009, 02:27:42 PM»
not everyone has their internet sword and shield ready to be told 'hey you suck, you won't make a dime, but i'm not going to tell you how to improve and GET to a point where you can because you should be drawing ___ instead.'

Offline day

Re: Split from Price Suggestion + Anatomy tips?
«Reply #5: August 28, 2009, 02:43:06 PM»
there's probably gigantic grammatical/spelling errors in here but i'm a sleepy head. apologies in advance.

though matter makes a strong and valid point, my opinions mostly lie with mousesong. i believe you can successfully critique someone in a simple manner without being blatantly rude. "stop drawing" falls directly into the category of 'blatantly rude'.

however i'm still mostly in the middle on this kind of topic. i'm on neither side of the fence for many reasons. for one, i disagree outright asskissing. the constant, flowery flourish of compliments just doesn't cut it for me. i think there is not a single piece of artwork out there that could be considered 'perfect' and everyone- even those who have drawn/painted/etc.'d for many years- could all use a pointer or two. on the other hand, i do not agree with just outright insults. just.. no.

critique is all about direction, in my opinion. critique does not need to come in a pretty package with stapled-on compliments and heart stickers, but it needs to be helpful. if someone is giving an honest effort to attempt to create something, their first efforts aren't always going to show immediate success/potential. i'm pretty positive my first drawing ever- which was mr. potatohead- did not give my parents any hints towards my artistic inclination (if that still even exists).

if someone is willing to put forth the effort to get better, by golly i think everyone ought to give them a chance. after all, the first three or four times you rode a bike, and even the ten times after, you probably weren't the most graceful munchkin.

another point i wanted to make is that not everyone can take an insult and turn it into a motivator. that, however, does not make them weak or anything synonymous to the word. everyone is built differently and that includes the entirety of the artistic community, if not especially the artistic community.

edit: another point i want to make is that critique should never be based on the style it is drawn in. though everyone has their preferences as to what style is most aesthetically pleasing to them, the critiquer needs to realize that their interests =/= the artist's interests. i constantly see blows of "that looks so animu" or "stop drawing anime". yes, it is not a widely accepted style and most of the 'anime' that is drawn by underdeveloped artists looks entirely generic. however, it is still a style that i believe can be accomplished beautifully when wielded by informed hands. not to mention those who usually say it seem to give off the vibe that they don't really know what the term 'anime' means, which is simply animation that has been produced in the region of Japan, it does not categorize the art done by fangirls with flowery eyes of their favorite 'bishies'. or whatever the kids are calling men these days. the same thing could be said for the 'disney' style of drawing, which is see as much as i see the so-called 'anime' style.

the point i'm trying to make here is if one does not find the style that the artist is trying to accomplish pleasing, and have no critique pertaining to that style of art, then critique should be avoided. however a simple suggestion (not an insulting "stop drawing ___") that they should try other forms art has never hurt anybody. exploring the different mediums and styles is what art is all about.

edit 2: oh i should probably cover my ass before it gets bitten. most of what i've posted is not directed at anyone specific. i'm talking about random strangers i've seen preforming this kind of behavior. so sorry, i wasn't trying to insult anyone in particular or call anyone out. just putting in my two cents.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2009, 03:11:30 PM by day »

Offline Narnia

Re: Split from Price Suggestion + Anatomy tips?
«Reply #6: August 28, 2009, 02:56:11 PM»
I think Matter's point is that if you're serious about art you'll take any feedback, regardless of its packaging, and find motivation to get better and insight on how to do that.

If you're not serious about art, or a doodler as Matter put it, you'll be offended by rough packaing, but it won't make a difference because you aren't looking to seriously improve in the first place. In the long run, you just ignore this and move on.

I hate to point anyone out, but I'm sure Sapphirus has received more negative treatment than most people here. However, she is still happily drawing.
"The views expressed in this message are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect those of the Furcadia Art Zone, Dragon's Eye Production, or Furcadia."

Offline day

Re: Split from Price Suggestion + Anatomy tips?
«Reply #7: August 28, 2009, 03:01:58 PM»
I think Matter's point is that if you're serious about art you'll take any feedback, regardless of its packaging, and find motivation to get better and insight on how to do that.

If you're not serious about art, or a doodler as Matter put it, you'll be offended by rough packaging, but it won't make a difference because you aren't looking to seriously improve in the first place. In the long run, you just ignore this and move on.

I hate to point anyone out, but I'm sure Sapphirus has received more negative treatment than most people here. However, she is still happily drawing.

thanks for clearing that up. the way i interpreted it was entirely different. my apologies~
« Last Edit: August 28, 2009, 03:03:08 PM by Narnia »

Offline Tain

Re: Split from Price Suggestion + Anatomy tips?
«Reply #8: August 28, 2009, 03:09:28 PM»
well 'stop drawing ferals entirely' isn't really a sort of feedback i think some would prefer..
now if i got a reason as to why, or how whatever someone said would help me improve it would be a lot nicer than having nothing. all i would know is i should stop drawing ferals. But it's not like i would take advice if it isn't backed up.

Offline Mousesong

Re: Split from Price Suggestion + Anatomy tips?
«Reply #9: August 28, 2009, 03:13:50 PM»
See, my problem isn't that people are over-rough. It's that their critique isn't critique at all. You don't have to focus on the positive. In fact, don't. If there's genuine good there, acknowledge, but if there's not, a simple "you suck" is still not acceptable, nor is it critique. It's an insult. As pointed out by Day, not everyone is going to take that as a challenge to draw better--most people are just going to write you off as the asshat that you are by saying that kind of thing.

To use your own example, "the leg is off," is totally fine critique. It's not very detailed (what's off? The angle? The anatomy? Too many joints? Or can you just acknowledge that you're not sure what specifically bothers you about it?), but it's not "your art sucks." What Youlanda says, what Morgan says, what so many other artists say, is "your art sucks and you don't know how to draw."

What I was trying to say to Youlanda was that she frankly doesn't critique. She doesn't advise, or say anything useful. All she does is judge and dismiss. It's ridiculous. It's also hypocritical of her, since she, as far as I can see and all I can remember of her stuff, rarely works outside of her own comfort zone, and refuses to listen to any suggestion that her own critique falls short of being useful.

And that's a problem with a lot of people here. At some point they stopped realizing that they had advice to give--solid wisdom that they could be using to help someone--and instead decided they were just going to use their talent as an excuse to be a huge jerk.

I've given plenty of critique on other boards and in chat rooms that have not included a single compliment. I'm not suggesting you tie up your critiques in flowery praise. I'm suggesting you just friggin' say something instead of hurling insults that don't do anything but hurt feelings and, maybe more importantly, make you look like a jerk.

Tain: Exactly. Maybe if she'd said "learn the basics of drawing geometric forms; learn to draw other biological forms; learn to shade, and THEN come back to drawing ferals; learn to draw realism, learn to draw pseudo-realism," I wouldn't be typing this post right now.

EDIT: Yeah, I called out Morgan too.

To continue: The big issue here isn't critique, or art. It's respect. I realize that saying this on the internet is about as effective as taking a leak in the ocean, but respect is important and it's rapidly dying. Not being respectful isn't helping someone "grow a skin." Nor is it making you look better. Being condescending and arrogant isn't tough love, or exposing someone to the knocks of the world. It's being a jerk. There is no argument here.

You can say all you want to that being willing to say "you suck" is just your way of motivating someone, or making them grow a skin, but really all it is is you being either insecure or terribly egotistical. Either way, it's stupid and it's not constructive.

I have honest to god started a critique with, "okay, this isn't good." I've started critiques that way many times. The important thing is that they are TRYING. And you're going to have to try and try and try some more before you make something good--that's how art or anything else works, as Day pointed out (nice post, Day).

Sometimes there are no compliments to give. Sometimes an artist needs to be told: you are not good yet, and you have a TON of work to do, and a lot of bad habits to unlearn.

So you tell them that. You don't disrespect them and come off looking like a self-absorbed jerk.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2009, 03:22:13 PM by Mousesong »
have you seen jezebel? she was walking where the cedars lined the road...

Offline Narnia

Re: Split from Price Suggestion + Anatomy tips?
«Reply #10: August 28, 2009, 03:21:37 PM»
If you think Youlanda doesn't critique then please go to her profile, click "profile info" and then click "show posts." I assure you you'll see detailed crituques in those threads that are posted on the appropriate board.
"The views expressed in this message are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect those of the Furcadia Art Zone, Dragon's Eye Production, or Furcadia."

Offline Mousesong

Re: Split from Price Suggestion + Anatomy tips?
«Reply #11: August 28, 2009, 03:24:48 PM»
If you think Youlanda doesn't critique then please go to her profile, click "profile info" and then click "show posts." I assure you you'll see detailed crituques in those threads that are posted on the appropriate board.

She doesn't always fail to critique. It's just that all too often instead of critiquing she just says "you suck." She apparently only has a willingness to critique art that's already pretty decent--art that is EASY to critique, because it's easier to spot the potential. She is unwilling to be respectful and polite (period, even to those capable artists). As I mentioned above, the greater issue here is tone and respect.

And also as I mentioned, the problem isn't limited to her. I'm picking on Youlanda, perhaps unfairly, because her post was the proverbial straw. The camel's back is broken.
have you seen jezebel? she was walking where the cedars lined the road...

Offline Morgan

Re: Split from Price Suggestion + Anatomy tips?
«Reply #12: August 28, 2009, 03:29:09 PM»
EDIT: Yeah, I called out Morgan too.

wut

Offline Narnia

Re: Split from Price Suggestion + Anatomy tips?
«Reply #13: August 28, 2009, 03:30:20 PM»
Most of the 'this piece sucks' comments come on the board were people don't want real critiques.
"The views expressed in this message are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect those of the Furcadia Art Zone, Dragon's Eye Production, or Furcadia."

Offline Mousesong

Re: Split from Price Suggestion + Anatomy tips?
«Reply #14: August 28, 2009, 03:33:40 PM»
I have to respectfully disagree. While this is sometimes the case, one of the threads that most outraged me, the recipient (I don't remember who it was--maybe Wings?) was genuinely being polite, listening to what was being said. They were having problems grasping what they were being told, because they were being told in the rudest, bluntest, most disrespectful way possible.

In the thread that this was split from, Youlanda was one of the first people to speak up, and she was immediately bristling and unfriendly. No wonder her feedback wasn't well-received?

Also if things are posted to the board where people don't want real critiques (such as this one), I still think that (overriding issue here)"this piece sucks" is NOT okay to tell anyone. It's just rude, and while I understand that this is the internet (where for some reason social politeness is considered a sign of weakness?), her attitude is just outright offensive even to me, just casually passing by.

Even when Youlanda posts real critique, for the most part she still does it as condescendingly as possible. This is a recurrent problem, not just for her, but for a lot of people around here.
have you seen jezebel? she was walking where the cedars lined the road...

Offline Narnia

Re: Split from Price Suggestion + Anatomy tips?
«Reply #15: August 28, 2009, 03:40:27 PM»
Would there be a difference if instead of saying 'this piece sucks' they merely respond by saying $0?
"The views expressed in this message are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect those of the Furcadia Art Zone, Dragon's Eye Production, or Furcadia."

Offline Mousesong

Re: Split from Price Suggestion + Anatomy tips?
«Reply #16: August 28, 2009, 03:41:48 PM»
Not good: "This piece sucks, I wouldn't buy it."

Not disrespectful, just honest: "I suggest practicing more and improving before offering your ports for sale. I don't think these are of a saleable quality."

EDIT: Also, frankly, I don't know why people buy MY ports, let alone for twenty to forty bucks a pop; this is a community with disposable income all too willing to drop it on just about anything. So, to be fair, yeah, *I* wouldn't buy a port that's amateurish and not pretty, but plenty of people would.
have you seen jezebel? she was walking where the cedars lined the road...

Offline Narnia

Re: Split from Price Suggestion + Anatomy tips?
«Reply #17: August 28, 2009, 03:45:00 PM»
Just because you want someone to use a different phrasiology doesn't mean what they are already using is wrong.
"The views expressed in this message are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect those of the Furcadia Art Zone, Dragon's Eye Production, or Furcadia."

Offline Mousesong

Re: Split from Price Suggestion + Anatomy tips?
«Reply #18: August 28, 2009, 04:02:46 PM»
It does, though, because the phraseology they're using is disrespectful.

I recognize that having an argument about being respectful on the internet is just asking to fight a losing battle, but I feel very strongly that this is an important issue to address. There is no simply no excuse for rudeness, internet or otherwise. Would you go up to a student at a high school art show and say "this sucks"? Maybe you would, but frankly, if you would: you are a jerk.

Now, I can't sit here and dictate what Youlanda or anyone else can and can't say. All I can do is raise my concern as a user of this board that the attitude around here is over the top and hostile. You want to know why Furc is losing sales? Maybe it has something to do with the fact that a substantial portion of its users are rude and overbearing--and a lot of them end up here.

I find it hilarious that FAZ is leading the charge to bring new people to Furc when they aren't doing anything about the lack of community in their own forum. What good is it going to do when Furcadian communities like this board are actively encouraging rudeness? People may come, but they're just going to turn around.

From the moment any of us decided draw someone with cat ears, we aligned ourselves, consciously or no, with an incredibly misunderstand and maligned segment of the internet. I don't identify as a furry. Most people here DON'T. But nonetheless, we're grouped there, and you'd think that with all the hostility we face from the outside for hobbies that frankly aren't hurting anyone, we'd think before we acted and behave with a little more respect and decency towards one another.
have you seen jezebel? she was walking where the cedars lined the road...

IPGD

Re: Split from Price Suggestion + Anatomy tips?
«Reply #19: August 28, 2009, 04:03:48 PM»
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not everyone has their internet sword and shield ready to be told 'hey you suck, you won't make a dime, but i'm not going to tell you how to improve and GET to a point where you can because you should be drawing ___ instead.'
That's the point. It's supposed to be shocking and hurtful and tear down the artificial sense of adequacy that years of asspats have constructed. The more it hurts at first, the more likely you are to remember it and take it to heart, and the less it's going to hurt over the long run if you never learn these things. It's like ripping the band-aid off.

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though matter makes a strong and valid point, my opinions mostly lie with mousesong. i believe you can successfully critique someone in a simple manner without being blatantly rude. "stop drawing" falls directly into the category of 'blatantly rude'.
I agree, most critique should be a lot more neutral than I do it. However, a couple of assholes per board isn't a bad thing, and they shouldn't be discouraged; I wouldn't say a board that has nothing but assholes is as bad as a critique board with nothing but asspatters, as I've certainly learned a lot from one of them, but a board that has a healthy mix of honest, polite posts along with jerkwads is going to be a lot more useful. It takes balance, and as asspatters are an unfortunate fact of life, there should be a couple colossal dickheads to tip the scales. Sometimes you really need someone to give you a rude awakening before you're able to appreciate those fair and balanced posts, too.

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critique is all about direction, in my opinion. critique does not need to come in a pretty package with stapled-on compliments and heart stickers, but it needs to be helpful. if someone is giving an honest effort to attempt to create something, their first efforts aren't always going to show immediate success/potential. i'm pretty positive my first drawing ever- which was mr. potatohead- did not give my parents any hints towards my artistic inclination (if that still even exists).
Something else I didn't mention in my first post that I should have is that the degree of assholery should be modified according to how much someone actually needs it. I wouldn't be a total fuckoff to someone who's just started (because they haven't picked up any bad habits that merit it yet), or to someone who obviously already knows what they're doing, but I'll crank up the heat when I see someone's who's just sitting there and jerking off year after year and never improving because they've probably drowned themselves in overwhelming positive reinforcement and need a solid kick in the ass (and also anyone who says "it's my style!" or mentions talent or akiane at all because I REALLY FUCKING HATE THOSE THINGS)

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another point i wanted to make is that not everyone can take an insult and turn it into a motivator. that, however, does not make them weak or anything synonymous to the word. everyone is built differently and that includes the entirety of the artistic community, if not especially the artistic community.
The professional art world is pretty fucking cutthroat. If you can't take someone telling you you suck, you're going to fucking drown when you get a professor that'll tear apart your work just to see you cry or a boss that has no obligation to be nice to you because he's paying you. If you ever want to move past peddling your crap for 5 bucks to fawning furries you'll need to learn how to bend over and take it eventually.

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another point i want to make is that critique should never be based on the style it is drawn in. though everyone has their preferences as to what style is most aesthetically pleasing to them, the critiquer needs to realize that their interests =/= the artist's interests. i constantly see blows of "that looks so animu" or "stop drawing anime". yes, it is not a widely accepted style and most of the 'anime' that is drawn by underdeveloped artists looks entirely generic. however, it is still a style that i believe can be accomplished beautifully when wielded by informed hands. not to mention those who usually say it seem to give off the vibe that they don't really know what the term 'anime' means, which is simply animation that has been produced in the region of Japan, it does not categorize the art done by fangirls with flowery eyes of their favorite 'bishies'. or whatever the kids are calling men these days. the same thing could be said for the 'disney' style of drawing, which is see as much as i see the so-called 'anime' style.
This is a common train of thought and it's also completely wrong. You're misinterpretting the intentions of the people who tell others to stop drawing anime -- it's not because they hate anime (I like it myself, in fact, even though I'm one of the loudest crusaders against people drawing it while they're beginners), it's because stylizing something before you actually understand its fundamental principles just does not work. You have to know the rules before you break them, and this goes for every artistic style, not just anime. People tell others to stop drawing anime because people who refuse to do anything but anime will never learn how to make their anime good. It's one thing to criticize something because you dislike the aesthetic qualities, but some animu artists have been conditioned into excusing all of their mistakes with "it's my style". It's completely self-strangling because, no, you didn't make the arm six times longer than the other because it's your "style", you made the arm six times long than the other because you don't know proportion and you're making excuses so you won't have to own your mistakes. Once you've learned the basics, though, knock your fucking socks off.

Again, almost everything I can say about stylization-before-foundation can be found in the first link in my signature (I get into this argument so many damn times that I needed to write fucking copypasta for it), which is probably explained more coherently there than if I were to rehash it in its entirety again.

And about the "anime isn't an art style, it's just a general category for Japanese animation!!!" thing: It is commonly used to mean an art style that shares many of the cultural aesthetics of Japanese animation and comics, and you know they mean when they say it, so let's not get into silly semantics arguments when it's much simpler this way and doesn't really matter :p

@Mousesong:

Yeah, I know you didn't mean that everything should be flowery and nice. I tend to go on preachy tangents where I end up not really addressing the person I'm talking to so much as anyone who might happen to read my posts. Still, I disagree that people who are deliberately mean are always insecure or egotistical; sure, a lot of them are, and I can't say I'm not an asshole or don't enjoy being an asshole for the sake of being an asshole, but you'll have to take my word for it when I say it's pretty tangential -- what I do here really is entirely altruistic. I really do want to help people, just like that one asshole helped me by making me feel horrible and reevaluate myself. And I think I really am doing that, since this critique board fucking sucked before I started posting and showing people that it's safe to be actually honest and that they can get more than asspats here.

Developing a thick skin is important; I deliberately target and assume the people I'm critiquing are serious about their art, and it's almost a requirement in the professional world to divorce personal feelings from your artwork. Again, yeah, it's not going to help casual people, but they can just ask their friends or someone who they'll know is going to be nice to them if they just want to get positive feedback. I never give advice to people who don't deliberately ask for it, and people who do should expect honesty.

The people who hand out "you sucks" could probably be helping more if they would offer helpful advice along with their shitflinging, yeah, but I honestly don't think it's hurting the board much since I'm always willing to do it for them if they won't (this is probably also another reason why they do it). Again, it is sort of a collaborative effort, after all.

Offline Morgan

Re: Split from Price Suggestion + Anatomy tips?
«Reply #20: August 28, 2009, 04:08:05 PM»
dear god. your op was fabulous but you just keep drawing it out and on and on and on and you're making yourself look like a one-trick pony with nothing else to say. stop arguing semantics, phrasing it ~*politely*~ is only going to  make people think that their problems are less severe than they are.

some people, no matter how much you happen to think they are special beautiful snowflakes, are very, very bad, and very, very stubborn! i'd name examples but i'd really rather not get suspended or some shit! some people only respond to negative feedback and gloss over positive feedback. it is sometimes needed, and that needs to be accepted.

edit: also, what matter said.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2009, 04:13:32 PM by Morgan »

Offline Mousesong

Re: Split from Price Suggestion + Anatomy tips?
«Reply #21: August 28, 2009, 04:15:12 PM»
Matter, you make a LOT of really good points that I am going to have to address in more detail when I'm home, but I want to gloss over a couple really quick.

I understand that for you someone telling you that you sucked was a big turnaround moment. I also understand that you think that doing the same for someone else is going to "tear down a wall." But what Day was trying to say is that one method of criticism and feedback isn't going to work for everyone (collaborative effort, in fact). And frankly, I really believe that the segment of the population that "you suck" is going to work on is extremely tiny. It doesn't work on me. Not every person has the type of personality that's going to respond to that as a challenge. Quiet a few of them are going to have the personality that writes the person saying it off as a jerk--as Day said, it's not a weakness, it's just a fundamental difference in character.

As to the professional art world being cutthroat, I entirely agree. But you're missing a big thing: I want to improve. I want to get better. I want to be a good artist and I know I am far from that point. All the same, I have zero interest in pursuing art professionally (I'll pick up a couple of commissions every now and then if someone asks, that's about it). So now that's a new tricky question: at what point of professional aspiration is it okay to be rude? I say, none. Being blunt and seriously saying "you are so far out of this" is fine, provided you're doing it to someone who really needs to hear it (and I still think you shouldn't be outright rude). Doing it to someone hawking a 95x95 piece of pixel art once a month isn't really accomplishing anything. It's a mistake to assume that everyone who draws wants to do so professionally--and yes, selling portraits counts, but it's not exactly the dog-eat-dog world of, say, print design.

This conversation is very interesting--I'm really glad that we're having a rational and in-depth debate here--it's a refreshing change of pace. I wish I had more time to address this in detail right this second ;-;

EDIT: Morgan posted since I typed this, so I'll address Morgan briefly: Your art is great, you once nabbed someone who stole my art, and you seem to be both funny and intelligent. Sometimes I really enjoy reading your posts. Don't be an asshat by derailing the conversation into an attempt to simply insult me. You're better than that. Being polite isn't to soften the blow, it's to be decent.

If people aren't taking your feedback, stop giving it to them. Don't be rude--just go away.

As to my repeating myself, I don't feel I am--I'm having to reiterate some points that I'm not phrasing very well (I have this problem a lot; I am not articulate), and I'm having to reiterate them to people who didn't see them the first time, but for the most part I'm addressing stuff as it comes up.

Please follow Matter's example, and be willing to phrase your dissenting opinion in a way that actually fosters debate, instead of degrading yourself.
have you seen jezebel? she was walking where the cedars lined the road...

Offline Creek

Re: Split from Price Suggestion + Anatomy tips?
«Reply #22: August 28, 2009, 04:16:30 PM»
[Oh hey you people beat me, oh well. READMYUSELESSPOSTLOL]

This is how I see it.

If you dont want rude comments or whatever. Dont do it. You're always gonna hear things you don't want too, IRL and Online. If you can't handle both ways, then dont bother and take the motive yourself and try to get better.

I, myself, have been studying anatomy for 3-4 months straight. And I went back to the basics. I've seen major improvement in my own work, but i'm no where near where I wanna be. Why did I search for improvement? Because I recieved critiques that OPENED my eyes and kicked me off my egotistic horse.

You need to be slapped to wake up from a fantasy world. Recieving sugarcoated critiques arent the best ones. Because most people are too busy eating the sugar coating to realize the actual taste.

Offline Mousesong

Re: Split from Price Suggestion + Anatomy tips?
«Reply #23: August 28, 2009, 04:20:51 PM»
Again (and again and again), I need to restate that I am not advocating sugarcoating. I'm advocating common politeness. There is a HUGE difference between the two.

I fully expect rudeness when I post an image. I get it. I get rude "you suck" critiques all the time, and I can handle it. I shake them off. I KNOW I suck, but you didn't help me at all--that's like telling me I'm fat. I know I'm fat. It's like telling me the sky is blue. I know the sky is blue. What was the point of wasting your time and mine with a post that says I suck?

Just because you know it's going to happen doesn't mean you shouldn't be outraged when it does. I don't vent outrage at the people who do it to me because it makes me look like I'm being personally sensitive, rather than the truth, which is that rudeness in general is just intolerable. But I WILL come out and rail against this in general because it's ridiculous how out of hand it's gotten.

The point is that yeah, you should expect it when you post. But it's RIDICULOUS that you should expect it. It's RIDICULOUS that the problem is so out of hand that you should just "deal with it." It's completely ridiculous that a community devoted to art would be populated half by trolls and half by asspatters.

EDIT: Also, the point is: it's ridiculous that a community to devoted to art is one wherein you absolutely cannot get any useful feedback at all unless Matter or maybe three other people are feeling talkative. And even then, sometimes you're going to get feedback in a way that's just vicious.

Coating your post in bile is NO BETTER than coating it in sugar.
have you seen jezebel? she was walking where the cedars lined the road...

Offline Morgan

Re: Split from Price Suggestion + Anatomy tips?
«Reply #24: August 28, 2009, 04:21:18 PM»
EDIT: Morgan posted since I typed this, so I'll address Morgan briefly: Your art is great, you once nabbed someone who stole my art, and you seem to be both funny and intelligent. Sometimes I really enjoy reading your posts. Don't be an asshat by derailing the conversation into an attempt to simply insult me. You're better than that. Being polite isn't to soften the blow, it's to be decent.

on your end, it may very well be to be decent, but on their end, it's just going to sugarcoat things a little more than perhaps what they need.

and fyi, i wasn't insulting you, you just keep saying the same things over and over and you're drawing this out much more than it needs to be. i do agree with most of your op, but carrying on isn't going to change anyone's mind is all.

 

anything